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'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 6:25 pm
by orangeman96
Is anyone working on a C128 style 'GO64' command to simplify running C=64 classics on the X16?
(A 'GO20' command for doing the same for VIC-20 classics might have merit too.)
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2024 6:48 pm
by TomXP411
What would you expect these commands to do?
I supposed you could change the screen mode and colors to look like the 64, but the X16 is not capable of emulating the Commodore 64, the way the 128 did. The 128 was extremely complex, for its time, and contained hardware specifically designed to allow for remapping the RAM and ROM for C64 mode operation.
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 3:23 am
by mgkaiser
You misunderstand the purpose of this project.
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 4:12 am
by kelli217
You're going to need a bigger paddle if you're going to try to stir up that much
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:18 pm
by desertfish
ummmm
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:41 pm
by DragWx
A more helpful way to explain this is, the Commander X16 was intended to be its own system with its own capabilities, and as far as I can tell, wasn't developed with any backwards compatibility in mind for other Commodore machines. Therefore, the things it would need to actually run games from the VIC-20 or C64 are not present in the X16's architecture, in favor of giving the X16 its own set of features.
Yes, the X16 will depend on people making software for it, and the downloads section of this forum contains many promising examples of what a future X16 library may include, once more of us receive our development boards. Also yes, those not interested in development could be better off waiting for the more cost-effective Gen 2 to become available.
...but, if the X16 not running C64 games is a deal breaker, that sounds like someone who's not necessarily interested in the X16 as much as just finding something that will play C64 games. Understanding what you're actually looking for in a device is important in determining whether that device is right for you. For some, the X16 won't do what they're looking for, but for others, it's exactly what they want. The former doesn't mean the latter's wrong, and the latter doesn't mean the former's wrong.
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 1:11 am
by TomXP411
DragWx wrote: ↑Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:41 pm
...but, if the X16 not running C64 games is a deal breaker, that sounds like someone who's not necessarily interested in the X16 as much as just finding something that will play C64 games. Understanding what you're actually looking for in a device is important in determining whether that device is right for you. For some, the X16 won't do what they're looking for, but for others, it's exactly what they want. The former doesn't mean the latter's wrong, and the latter doesn't mean the former's wrong.
This. If what you're looking for is a Commodore 64... go buy or build a Commodore 64. For someone who really wants a retro experience, but also wants new hardware, they can build a MiSTer system into a wedge case and have fun with it.
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2024 6:12 pm
by Ser Olmy
orangeman96 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 8:42 pmSounds like, in a sense, the C=128 is more capable than the X16 is aspiring to be; if true, then the X16 might well be doomed to have as large of a software library as the C=128 does as I type.
I'd argue that the C128 (which I own and appreciate) was a product with no clear aim and no defined target audience.
It was highly compatible with the C64, but in C128 mode you didn't get better graphics, nor higher speeds, unless you ran in 80-column mode which required a CGA-capable monitor. And the CP/M compatibility was more or less a joke; the Z80 ran at an absolutely anemic 2 Mhz, and if that wasn't bad enough, all I/O was done by switching back and forth between Z80 and 6502 (8502) mode behind the scenes.
If the X16 had been primarily a slightly souped-up C64, what would have prevented it from suffering the same fate as the C128, which was to spend all its time in C64 mode?
orangeman96 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 8:42 pmAt first, I was really excited about the X16, but the more I hear, the more my gut tells me that the X16 will go the way of the *C*=16, and other platforms like it, especially when core developers like David and Kevin say things akin to, "If you don't like it, don't buy it," during interviews posted to the internet.
I have not seen this, so I can't really comment. However, you seem to be missing what the creator of this "modern retro" system is trying to accomplish (see below).
orangeman96 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 8:42 pmGiven such messaging, I am now, more than ever, an X16 "fence sitter" and won't even consider buying one until at least Gen 2, predicated that there is a respectable broad software library. (I doubt I am the only one.)
The X16 is designed to attract those who wish to create software on a platform simple enough that a single developer can understand and use every component, as was the case with the home computers of the 1980s and 1990s, but at the same time be sufficiently powerful that one can make genuinely useful applications and good-looking (and good-sounding) games. I think the X16 has been at least reasonably successful in that regard.
If you primarily want to use programs and games rather than tinker with the system itself, and you're waiting for an extensive software library to appear (just like most buyers did back in the mid-80s before making a decision), you may have to wait at least a while.
I don't think it's reasonable to criticise any of the "modern retro" systems for not having much software at launch. That's just not the selling point, and it just might be (please excuse me if I'm jumping to conclusions here) that you aren't really the primary audience for this product.
(I have my own criticisms of the X16, but it not being C64 compatible and lacking software aren't among them.)
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:39 am
by BruceRMcF
orangeman96 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 03, 2024 8:42 pm... At first, I was really excited about the X16, but the more I hear, the more my gut tells me that the X16 will go the way of the *C*=16, and other platforms like it, especially when core developers like David and Kevin say things akin to, "If you don't like it, don't buy it," during interviews posted to the internet. (My gut also tells me Jack Tramiel would fire them both for saying such things, no matter how talented they are!)
Note that Jack Tramiel was running a company selling commercial mass market computers, not a small niche hobbyist operation. Pretending that the computers being made are able to be more things to more people than they were really able to be doesn't fit the niche hobbyist system market very well.
Re: 'GO64' (and 'GO20') Commands?
Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:47 am
by DragWx
I, personally, would not be comfortable working under Jack Tramiel. I'm happy I get to contribute to the X16 without having to worry about the JACK ATTACK.
