Change of product direction, good and bad news!

[John Federico]

The custom keyboard is nice because it has the Petscii characters on the keycaps.

[BruceMcF]

5 hours ago, paulscottrobson said:

... I do wonder about how that affects the price. If the price of the kit is $250-$300ish a custom case and keyboard would probably do a large chunk of that on its own, and at the X8 price you are probably bare board level. Which is fine, screw it to a bit of perspex or something.

In any event, the keyboard alone would certainly NOT "do a large chunk of that on its own", as the non-custom version retails for $25-$30 on Amazon. The problem with the "customized front-plate" case (it wasn't a fully custom case) is also scale, but unlike the keyboard, you can't share it with emulator+ keyboard "support" tiers and the "full set" K8 tier.

If it is crowdfunded, then yes, the X8 should have bare board tier and a full set board + keyboard + gamepad + hdmi cable + PS tier.

If the X16p DIY tier is set at 250-500, the X8 full set tier at 250-500, the X8 bare board tier set at 250 minimum between full sets and bare boards and uncapped, and the crowdfund budget set so that if the X16p and X8 full set both hit at the minimum target, the support tiers have sold 300 keyboards, and the keyboard is costed into the build budgets at order cost plus 20%, the keyboard deposit will be recouped if the project funds, and if the project goes above the minimum, it will be recouped at a profit.

If there is sufficient profit, then enough additional keyboards can be purchased to allow a X16p built campaign with a cap that is reasonable to build in a reasonable delivery time, without having to make the minimum purchase order limit for the customized keycaps.

[EMwhite]

One problem is that 1,000 of anything = more money than anybody would normally want to commit to well ahead of even knowing what (or if) a product will come to fruition.  Hopefully it's just fake news and nobody invested $10K or more on a pile of keyboards.

Interesting that Stefany over @ Foenix has been adamant that the inclusion of anything such as a keyboard, mouse, or a boondoggle keychain is just more crap to buy, store, ship, and that equals cost-delay-logistics and more cost.  ESPECIALLY if needing to ship to places like Europe where anything and everything is going drive cost up further and tariffs due from end user.  She says "just a go to Amazon in your region and get your keyboard with free shipping".

Maybe the bundling of Petscii Robots Sooper-Dooper Platinum edition will bring enough fans out of the woodwork and drive viral interest.  Hopefully the continuing efforts of people like Matt Heffernan and CITY Connection from Ani Kirilov will keep the fire burning.

 

[paulscottrobson]

1 hour ago, BruceMcF said:

In any event, the keyboard alone would certainly NOT "do a large chunk of that on its own", as the non-custom version retails for $25-$30 on Amazon.

... I thought they were selling the customised version, my bad ?

[paulscottrobson]

17 minutes ago, EMwhite said:

One problem is that 1,000 of anything = more money than anybody would normally want to commit to well ahead of even knowing what (or if) a product will come to fruition.  Hopefully it's just fake news and nobody invested $10K or more on a pile of keyboards.



Interesting that Stefany over @ Foenix has been adamant that the inclusion of anything such as a keyboard, mouse, or a boondoggle keychain is just more crap to buy, store, ship, and that equals cost-delay-logistics and more cost.  ESPECIALLY if needing to ship to places like Europe where anything and everything is going drive cost up further and tariffs due from end user.  She says "just a go to Amazon in your region and get your keyboard with free shipping".



Maybe the bundling of Petscii Robots Sooper-Dooper Platinum edition will bring enough fans out of the woodwork and drive viral interest.  Hopefully the continuing efforts of people like Matt Heffernan and CITY Connection from Ani Kirilov will keep the fire burning.



 

Well, Dave said he'd invested 5 figures and that Peri had invested 4 figures.

I'm not sure how much actual cost there is in the development.  I'd got the impression, perhaps wrongly, from comments that it was done for nothing or for a share of any profits. Parts cost can't be huge. PCB costs, didn't think they were ridiculous. Pre-paid the licensing is a possibility I suppose.

I wonder if a decision will come sooner rather than later. One consequence of the original post will be some developers will be wondering if the machine they are writing the game for will ever exist, especially if it is Vera heavy stuff. There's something special about seeing one of your games on a real piece of hardware.

[BruceMcF]

2 hours ago, paulscottrobson said:

... I thought they were selling the customised version, my bad ?

Ah yes ... to the best of my recollection, those were always a special for those who wanted the mechanical keys. Myself, I haven't been spoiled for keyboards, and a butterfly switch keyboard with substantially higher profile keys than the ones on this notebook I am typing on now would do me just fine.

AFAIU, the "standard" customized version is a USB/PS2 multi-mode wired compact keyboard, with the customization coming with a substantial minimum order requirement, rather than a per keyboard cost like the customized mechanical switch keyboards. But with the customized mechanical switch ones available Quantity 1, they have been the only custom X16 hardware available, to date.

[Scott Robison]

2 hours ago, paulscottrobson said:

Well, Dave said he'd invested 5 figures and that Peri had invested 4 figures.



I'm not sure how much actual cost there is in the development.  I'd got the impression, perhaps wrongly, from comments that it was done for nothing or for a share of any profits. Parts cost can't be huge. PCB costs, didn't think they were ridiculous. Pre-paid the licensing is a possibility I suppose.



I wonder if a decision will come sooner rather than later. One consequence of the original post will be some developers will be wondering if the machine they are writing the game for will ever exist, especially if it is Vera heavy stuff. There's something special about seeing one of your games on a real piece of hardware.

I suspect that David has been absorbing most of the costs. Not to say that any of the rest of the team haven't had their own expenses, but my impression is that David feels a moral or ethical obligation to pay most of the costs for his dream computer. Cloanto is probably part of that expense as you observe, plus whatever has been invested in keyboards thus far. PCB expenses, if there have been three prototypes up to now, at $25 or more each in a lot of 5 per prototype, plus shipping, could easily be $500 alone. Shipping of completed boards to various people for testing & analysis will add up. We know Adrian Black received one, it wouldn't surprise me if there are others who've received one who don't have a YouTube channel to document the experience. I don't know what the cost is for maintaining this website and community of the past however many months. I'm sure it's not hugely expensive, but it is just yet another expense.

There are so many variables at play and people who want to be compensated for their contribution on top of people who donate their time freely. I don't think it would be hard to reach the $10,000 level of investment, the minimum five figure value, over a two+ year window.

[Wonderdog]

8 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

If the X16p DIY tier is set at 250-500, the X8 full set tier at 250-500, the X8 bare board tier set at 250 minimum between full sets and bare boards and uncapped, and the crowdfund budget set so that if the X16p and X8 full set both hit at the minimum target, the support tiers have sold 300 keyboards, and the keyboard is costed into the build budgets at order cost plus 20%, the keyboard deposit will be recouped if the project funds, and if the project goes above the minimum, it will be recouped at a profit.

There is no way in my mind that an X8 at anything like $250 would be an attractive prospect.



I think that the path forward for any crowdfunder mechanism needs to be a straight forward, single option for the DIY X16p kit (with keyboard and chuck in a free copy of PETSCII Robots) priced and targeted to ensure that it covers some of the sunk cost, and achieves a minimum quantity to make an intitial production run viable. Maybe a limited quantity of preassembled kits available (#'s capped at however many Dave can put together himself without going insance, and charged at an appropriately high premium). No case, no variant pledge options, no X8 etc. KISS.



The X8 obviously isn't the computer Dave wanted to create for himself - but its a mechanism to claw back some funds, and could be a great device for many people. It could be a success if launched on its own at the right price - but diluting an X16p kickstarter by adding the X8 would be a mistake IMO.



The X8 only needs to exist until design/production of a lower cost/ready to go surface mount X16 or X16e exists, as these would supersede a lot of its end user appeal. On the other hand, if the X8 is just used as a temporary mechanism to claw back some funds and bolster development of the X16, then orphaning it as soon as it achieves enough sales to dig the X16 out of the hole would be a pretty cynical move towards buyers - either it stands on its own two feet and serves a longer term market purpose, or don't bother. 



It's a tough situation.

[BruceMcF]

2 hours ago, Wonderdog said:

There is no way in my mind that an X8 at anything like $250 would be an attractive prospect.

Sorry, that was a bit ambiguous. Those numbers weren't prices (hence no "$"), they were quantity ranges ... a complete set (which is substantially more fulfillment work), maybe a minimum 250 for the tier (to get a price break on the power supply, hdmi cable), maximum 500. A bare board tier without a cap on the tier, because if it is ordered from the board maker with each one in it's anti static shipping bag, the fulfillment is easier.

I'd be less confident than you that the 1,000 DIY X16p's required to hit the minimum order for the keyboards will fund. And in any event, when your top tier is as expensive and as skill demanding as the DIY X16p, a crowdfund campaign NEEDS lower cost "support" tiers for people who want to support but can't splash down hundreds of dollars on a kit they may be unable to build.

May as well kill two birds with the same stone and have the "support" tiers built around the keyboard, to make it easy to hit the minimum keyboard order. A "supporter" tier, you get a special pdf of the X16 and X8 documentation with a list of supporters. Another more expensive support tier with keyboard and printed docs. An "VIP" supporter tier with keyboard, printed docs and a signed framed X logo signed by David.

[Wonderdog]

4 minutes ago, BruceMcF said:

Those numbers weren't prices (hence no "$"), they were quantity ranges ... a complete set (which is substantially more fulfillment work), maybe a minimum 250 for the tier (to get a price break on the power supply, hdmi cable), maximum 500. A bare board tier without a cap on the tier, because if it is ordered from the board maker with each one in it's anti static shipping bag, the fulfillment is easier.

Apologies - I misunderstood.