Change of product direction, good and bad news!

[x16tial]

I'll start my answer with a question:  Why is the Phase 3 X16 even needed?  Or Even Phase 2?

It seems to me, most 8 bit enthusiasts love the openness, freedom and hackability that these systems offer.  Condensing all of it down to a single chip (or close to it) seems to me, to be antithetical.  Just because it can be done, should it?

If someone wants to run their X16 software in a portable way, couldn't a phone/tablet/Raspberry Pi emulator, or all of the above be created?  Wouldn't running an emulator on a Raspberry Pi essentially be the same experience?

Having said that, I'd like to go back to your Elon Musk/Tesla analogy you started this project with.

The X8 is your Roadster: small, fast, sexy.  And here's how it doesn't disrupt the X16 market:  charge a substantial premium for it.  Diehards will want it, and will buy it, and they will fund what you really wanna do: the X16.

The X16 is your Model 3, the workaday, every man's model.  The more comfortable, and more attainable version, with a lot more practicality.

Keep it open (as possible), and hackable, and available.  Let people figure out how to case it, customize it, do whatever with it.

Oh, and ship it with 2megs RAM, do your best to make sure everyone has the same platform.  RAM "Upgradeability" for this system isn't a good idea, in my strong opinion.

What's your Model S?  Do you need a Model S?  I don't really think you do.

Edit: Down the line, maybe do the surface mount version (Phase 2).  Maybe.  But right now you need to get this thing out there, get people excited and doing things on it.  Phase 2 will be a nice to have, not a must have.  Don't even think about it right now, imo.

[ryanyoder]

Just my 2c. The original idea to use all real chips was not realistic. Sourcing all those chips and the logistics involved is not cost effective or reliable enough for a commercially viable product with limited production. I’d release the X8 or some variant of it with a custom case like the Sega Genesis mini.  I also don’t want a massive case and power supply sitting on my desk.

I like the idea of a computer inside the keyboard also. Tech might be far enough along to install a SBC into a keyboard.

 

Either way, we are enjoying the videos and progress. Don’t worry about your fans reaction to changing course too much. We will be here and support you whichever way you decide to go.

[Chris Grillo]

2 minutes ago, ryanyoder said:

Just my 2c. The original idea to use all real chips was not realistic. Sourcing all those chips and the logistics involved is not cost effective or reliable enough for a commercially viable product with limited production. I’d release the X8 or some variant of it with a custom case like the Sega Genesis mini.  I also don’t want a massive case and power supply sitting on my desk.



I like the idea of a computer inside the keyboard also. Tech might be far enough along to install a SBC into a keyboard.



 



Either way, we are enjoying the videos and progress. Don’t worry about your fans reaction to changing course too much. We will be here and support you whichever way you decide to go.

I actually have a keyboard with a powerbank and an RPi 0 in it. All DIY stuff of course. Many seem to be forgetting one important thing here. The actual cost. In a troubled time, I am surprised people want the full, more expensive unit.

[Greyfox386]

David and team, in the back of my mind I've always expected the X16 to come out around $500 when fully assembled with a case.  ($700 with the fancy upgraded keyboard which I've already purchased a year ago).  I have always been a programmer at heart and although I am perfectly happy to assemble a computer, I am not interested in soldering parts to a board.  I'd much rather buy a board assembled with a small warranty (90 days is plenty).  I want a case themed for the system, but I have no problem putting the system together so long as the board arrived assembled. 

You all have my utmost respect for what you are doing here, and this shouldn't be a not-for-profit thing for the good of the community, you deserve to make a profit from your time, labor and expertise. 

If you decide to go the parts direction, please at least offer an option to pay for an assembled board, and point us to a case we can purchase separately as a minimum.  (I LOVED the design Perifractic and the team has already shown).

Thanks for your consideration of my opinions and desires.   ?

[dbozan99]

5 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

Would it have an effect that people would simply code software for the X8, thus making the X16 be sort of like the Commodore 128 or the Plus/4, where all of the software is written for the lowest compatible system and therefor never taking advantage of the full system? 

Yes, it would absolutely have a negative effect. Not only if you release an X8, but I think that creating phase-2 and/or phase-3 versions of the X16 would further dilute what an "X16" is to the layperson. Earlier, ZeroByte wrote "I never had any interest in phase 3. A Raspberry Pi running an emulator would give the same experience." and I think that he is not alone in thinking that. To further expand on that, I don't really see much point in the phase-2 version either; to me it just seems like a cut-down version without purpose.

 

Having multiple SKUs with differing feature sets will fracture the user base. This is already going to be a somewhat niche product, why fracture that into two, three, or even four segments? I think that only offering 3 different variations of the phase-1, the only phase, is the correct move: as a kit with or without a case, or fully pre-assembled in a case.



From my perspective, the X16 is all about learning; I think the future of the X16 will be determined based on the quality of the documentation it comes with. You want everyone who uses one, young and old, to be able to say "look at those chips, I know what every one does and how it all works together!". I think going with the vintage IBM style of documentation would be appropriate; Include three-ring binder(s) and plenty of thorough, easy-to-understand paperwork, detailing every aspect of using, diagnosing, and developing for the system. I believe having a physical copy of the documentation is vital. Having the docs solely on the internet or a phone app would be distracting. It also fits with the "Old Style, but Modern Perspective" theme.

 

Consider the potential users of this system. I think that the demographic is tech geeks and children. At this point you can probably stop thinking about the geeks since everyone who's seen your videos has probably already made up their mind about whether or not they will purchase one when they're ready. That only really leaves children. How will they feel when they open the box? The first time they turn it on? The first time that they look at the documentation? The first time that they need to troubleshoot? First impressions are really important, especially with children. This is why I think that having good docs will go a very long way. Of course it is possible to overdo it though; lots of paperwork can be intimidating.

 

[Norman F]

Love him or hate him, I recently read an article about Steve Jobs and how he trimmed the Apple product offerings that might apply here.  That being said, this is more of a niche product so maybe the process in the article doesn't apply.

https://www.inc.com/jeff-haden/why-intelligent-minds-like-steve-jobs-elon-muskembrace-wtp-rule-to-make-better-decisions.html

[neuronstatic]

Like others have said, I see the X8 and the X16 as two different things that can coexist in the same ecosystem. I would probably like to have both eventually. This is why I have three variants of a Raspberry Pi and two variants of a Beagle Bone today. In fact experiments with connecting the X8 and the X16 could lead to some interesting ideas and concepts.

[Greyfox386]

5 hours ago, ZeroByte said:

Me, I'm happy to pay the extra to have you or Kevin assemble mine, and will purchase a phase 1 system the very day it's available.



 

Ditto, and I don't think $200 for that service is at all unreasonable.   I realize others need/want the costs to stay as low as possible, so the only way appease the masses is to sell the kit with an assembly upgrade option for those who prefer it.

I think the one thing that is universal is that a X16 exists, and we can buy it.  Drop the X8 for now.  While interesting and also fun, it's not what attracted most of us here to begin with. 

If you have to ship with some minor unresolved issues, then do it, just so long as you are confident that those can be corrected once they're in people's hands (assuming they are not show stopping issues of course).  I think most of the folks here trust the team and have faith this isn't a take the money and run situation. ? 

[Greyfox386]

Duplicate post

[picosecond]

Commander X8 is what this project should have been from the start.  Wasn't the whole point supposed to be retro bare-metal programming on a reliable, relatively inexpensive platform? Write off X16 as a bad idea and release the X8.

I never understood why anyone cares what package the transistors live in, surface mount vs. through-hole, etc.  It's the architecture that matters, not the appearance.

An FPGA 6502 core is no different than a discrete 6502.  Heck, all of WDCs new work is cores in FPGAs.

The biggest problem isn't manufacturing, it's licensing.  If you don't own your kernel (sic) you don't own your product.