Commander X16

I'm going to keep it simple and not really get into the tech specs or what specific features or hardware I think they should have used in what system. There are a lot of good ideas floating around in this thread already. 

Basically, if I had somehow landed in that role in 1984, I would have done everything in my power to do what Jack was doing. I mean, he basically made Commodore into a powerhouse it was back then, he knew what he was doing and he did it very well. I am a firm believer in "If it isn't broke, don't fix it", and Jacks vision of Commodore was far from broken. That being said, if they had stayed on that track and Gould would not have had something different in mind on how to run the Company, Jack probably would have not left and the world of home computing may have looked a bit different than it does today. 

If they had kept the Plus 4 as cheap as it was originally intended, kept on innovating and improving their products to not only compete with the competition, but offer something better, and kept the pricing competitive, I think Commodore would have survived. The same goes for Workbench, it was a great OS, and while I still believe Windows would have still taken over the world, there is a really good chance we would see Commodore machines today, somewhat like Mac's, running their over custom Workbench OS.

But of course, hindsight is 20/20. It's still fun to speculate. ?

9 minutes ago, Strider said:

I'm going to keep it simple and not really get into the tech specs or what specific features or hardware I think they should have used in what system. There are a lot of good ideas floating around in this thread already. 



Basically, if I had somehow landed in that role in 1984, I would have done everything in my power to do what Jack was doing. I mean, he basically made Commodore into a powerhouse it was back then, he knew what he was doing and he did it very well. I am a firm believer in "If it isn't broke, don't fix it", and Jacks vision of Commodore was far from broken. That being said, if they had stayed on that track and Gould would not have had something different in mind on how to run the Company, Jack probably would have not left and the world of home computing may have looked a bit different than it does today. 



If they had kept the Plus 4 as cheap as it was originally intended, kept on innovating and improving their products to not only compete with the competition, but offer something better, and kept the pricing competitive, I think Commodore would have survived. The same goes for Workbench, it was a great OS, and while I still believe Windows would have still taken over the world, there is a really good chance we would see Commodore machines today, somewhat like Mac's, running their over custom Workbench OS.



But of course, hindsight is 20/20. It's still fun to speculate. ?

Good thoughts. One of the things that has was true from the beginning of the microcomputer revolution was that the hardware was the important part, and software followed. CP/M was arguably the first software that became popular enough to drive what hardware would be released, but there was still a lot of room for companies to create consumer level microcomputers that would each be custom little systems (like game consoles especially today).

Had IBM kept their platform proprietary, and kept their OS rather than "giving it" to Microsoft, many things could have been different. But once that genie was out of the bottle, it provided all the incentive in the world for companies to start cloning IBM compatible hardware.

Had it not been MS-DOS, it could have been custom CP/M systems. Or ultimately unix / posix systems.

Commodore had a hardware empire and software was a necessary evil that didn't make them money. As long as they made their money from selling new hardware to the same people every few years, without a focus on backward compatibility, I think their demise was inevitable (though as you say, 20/20 hindsight and all that). 

That's one thing I always agree on, my biggest gripe looking back, was backwards and cross platform compatibility. Just about everything back then was proprietary, nothing was really compatible with anything else. You basically either had to pick one platform and stick with it and hope it survived, or have deep pockets to buy multiple machines. Thankfully, many good games and software packages were ported to different popular platforms, but that was really band-aid in my opinion. I can't even count the number of time I heard of people buying the wrong version of something for the system they owned.

The next big key to success was "standardization", followed by quality control. Nintendo did it for consoles and it made them rich. IBM was already rich and powerful and had good standardization and QA becasue that was simply a fact of the corporate and industrial worlds. Microsoft did it, and they basically took over the planet (all be it by shady means IMHO, but that's a different argument).

I have been a hardware man most of my life, software always came second, but standardizing an OS to work on the most readily available hardware at the time, was something that needed to happen. I  just wish Commodore had gotten on that bus much earlier.

In fact, to this day, even though I love Apple as a company, and think they make excellent products! I don't actually use any of their products becasue I have a dislike for closed ecosystems. I go on and on about QA and standardization, and Apple did it wonderfully, but the world has a standard now (perhaps an evil one), but it's there and a vast majority of the worlds software is designed for it. Apple kinda reminds me of the 1980's when nothing was compatible with anything else and everything had to be ported.

That's why I stick to Windows based machines these days. I do love and play with Linux in various forms, but it's an open platform, and I am huge supporter of open source these days when it comes to my modern hardware.

?

I don't really have a problem with "non standard hardware" per se, as long as I know what I'm getting it for. I had the first three generations of Playstation, for example. I have my modern PC compatible hardware. I have my android phone, I have a kindle, I have a reMarkable tablet, I have a few RPi's, looking to add an X16 to the bunch. ?

I run Windows and FreeBSD on some of it, and certainly there is a lot to be said for standardized interfaces so that we don't have to throw everything away when we buy a new computer, but I like non-standard (or maybe I should say new-standard) things. It helps keep the standard keepers moving forward so as to not be left behind.

1. I would sell Plus/4 series for as low price as possible, like how Jack wished that to be, but I'll axe the Commodore 16 computer, like what David Murray of The 8-Bit Guy said, was a huge obstacle of Plus/4 becoming a great selling platform. And they'll compete with ZX Spectrum.

2. I'll make sure Plus/4 is suitable for educational purposes as well, to brand it as the PET's successor.

3. Striking a deal with Motorola so Commodore can make their own Motorola 68k clones for Amiga, like they did with Intel chips for their PC compatibles.

4. Speaking of PC compatibles, I would make the Commodore PC compatibles have Tandy/PCjr sound and graphics (along with their own DeskMate competitor), so they can compete with Tandy, but also some nifty little features unique to Commodore PC compatibles, such as an ADPCM channel, a proper reset button and early support for 3.5 inch floppy disks.

5. Design a Commodore 64 card for Amiga, IBM PC, Plus/4 and Apple II, so they can run Commodore 64 software and games (be it from diskette, cartridge or even cassettes) thru it.

6. Design a better CP/M card with faster Z80 and better blitter graphics support and support for all CP/M OEM formats. Would be similar to C128 CP/M mode, but faster.

6. Design an actual successor to Commodore 64 in 1987 with no need for backwards compatibility (unless if the said C64 card was preinstalled), with specs similar to Commander X16, with some differences, such as Commodore's own version of Weitek's 65186 CPU, 512 colors at once with 256KB VRAM, 256KB main RAM, BASIC v10 to take full advantage of new graphics and sound commands, an ADPCM channel in addition to YM2151+YM3012 DAV, as well as enhanced SID with 15 voice with more waveforms (more variations of Mix, an NES-style 4-bit pseudo-triangle in addition to real triangle wave and pseudo-sawtooth in addition to actual sawtooth), stereo, superior ADSR, better manufacturing methods, 12 octave ranges and backwards compatibility to original SID. And three cartridge slots, in addition to 1581 disk drive and five expansion slots.

7. Axe the C64GS, Amiga CDTV and CD32 and instead opt for original game console (or an arcade cabinet as a Neo Geo competitor) with unique specs such as Intel i980 and Motorola 88000 together, 512KB RAM, 512KB VRAM with 4096 colours at once (16.7 in later ones), a YM2610B+YM2151+ADPCM+DAC+Enhanced SID combo and support for CD format in addition to cartridges, as a Sega CD and Neo Geo CD competitor. Optional support for Roland MT-32 and SC-55, and maybe, just maybe LD-ROM with playback for PAL and NTSC discs. Motorola 68030 with 68882 and Zilog Z280 with Intel i8232.

8. Unrealistic, but manufacture some Commodore-branded CD players and VHS VCRs, and maybe even LaserDisc players.

9. In Japan, why not Commodore to manufacture their own MSX computers?

9 minutes ago, xanthrou said:

1. I would sell Plus/4 series for as low price as possible, like how Jack wished that to be, but I'll axe the Commodore 16 computer, like what David Murray of The 8-Bit Guy said, was a huge obstacle of Plus/4 becoming a great selling platform. And they'll compete with ZX Spectrum.



2. I'll make sure Plus/4 is suitable for educational purposes as well, to brand it as the PET's successor.



3. Striking a deal with Motorola so Commodore can make their own Motorola 68k clones for Amiga, like they did with Intel chips for their PC compatibles.



4. Speaking of PC compatibles, I would make the Commodore PC compatibles have Tandy/PCjr sound and graphics (along with their own DeskMate competitor), so they can compete with Tandy, but also some nifty little features unique to Commodore PC compatibles, such as an ADPCM channel, a proper reset button and early support for 3.5 inch floppy disks.



5. Design a Commodore 64 card for Amiga, IBM PC, Plus/4 and Apple II, so they can run Commodore 64 software and games (be it from diskette, cartridge or even cassettes) thru it.



6. Design a better CP/M card with faster Z80 and better blitter graphics support and support for all CP/M OEM formats. Would be similar to C128 CP/M mode, but faster.



6. Design an actual successor to Commodore 64 in 1987 with no need for backwards compatibility (unless if the said C64 card was preinstalled), with specs similar to Commander X16, with some differences, such as Commodore's own version of Weitek's 65186 CPU, an ADPCM channel in addition to YM2151+YM3012, as well as enhanced SID with 15 voice, more waveforms (more variations of Mix, an NES-style 4-bit pseudo-triangle in addition to real triangle wave and pseudo-sawtooth in addition to actual sawtooth), better manufacturing methods and backwards compatibility to original SID.



7. Axe the C64GS, Amiga CDTV and CD32 and instead opt for original game console (or an arcade cabinet as a Neo Geo competitor) with unique specs such as Intel i890, 512KB RAM, 512KB VRAM with 4096 colours at once, a YM2610B+YM2151+ADPCM+Enhanced SID combo and support for CD format in addition to cartridges, as a Sega CD and Neo Geo CD competitor. Optional support for Roland MT-32 and SC-55, and maybe, just maybe LD-ROM with playback for PAL and NTSC discs.



8. Unrealistic, but manufacture some Commodore-branded CD players and VHS VCRs, and maybe even LaserDisc players.

Oh, I never would have made the Plus/4 or the Commodore 16. 

The Commodore 64 should have been the last 8-bit computer. 

The 68K and 808x were clearly the future. I knew it then, even as a kid. I'm still baffled that Tramiel thought 8 bit computers were going to be competitive once the Mac and Amiga arrived... I've seen the sales figures for that timeframe, and the 8-bit sales simply tanked in favor of the IBM PC (and clones) and the 68K machines from Apple and Commodore. The world didn't need a $100 POS computer. The world needed a $400-500 good computer. Apple understood. Commodore didn't. 

 

 

2 hours ago, TomXP411 said:

Oh, I never would have made the Plus/4 or the Commodore 16. 



The Commodore 64 should have been the last 8-bit computer. 



The 68K and 808x were clearly the future. I knew it then, even as a kid. I'm still baffled that Tramiel thought 8 bit computers were going to be competitive once the Mac and Amiga arrived... I've seen the sales figures for that timeframe, and the 8-bit sales simply tanked in favor of the IBM PC (and clones) and the 68K machines from Apple and Commodore. The world didn't need a $100 POS computer. The world needed a $400-500 good computer. Apple understood. Commodore didn't. 



 



 

Under my hypothetical decision, Plus/4 would have better graphic capabilities (aside from a larger colour palette) than C64, while being cheaper than the C64, so it would sell great in workplace and education markets.

The C64 is quite early to be the last 8-bit home computer, as it was released in 1982, while Plus/4 was released in 1984, fun fact: a year before NES arrived at the American video game market, or at least release Super Mario Bros. there. Sure technology does evolve rapidly, but consumers couldn't always keep up with the evolution, so that's why Commodore needed a perfect timing to finish their 16-bit successor to C64. To make sure Commodore wouldn't get cheap (as they did in C64GS and Amiga CDTV/CD32), that's why they released Amiga as a high-end computer for both workplace and home markets, while they need time to replace the C64 and Plus/4 in the mid-range and eventually low-end markets.

In addition, to make sure no expense really would be spared, that's why Commodore at the meantime (aside from making Amiga) make their own enhanced Tandy 1000-compatible variants of their PC compatibles, extending marketing life on Plus/4 and C64 until mid-1990s, making Commodore 64 cards for Amiga, Apple II and IBM PC, a better CP/M card for C64, Plus/4 and Amiga, and licenses JVC for VHS, Sony and Phillips for Compact Disc, Pioneer for LaserDisc (for both home and professional market) and ASCII for MSX, allowing them to create a 16-bit successor, based on 65186 CPU, to both C64 and Plus/4 and eventually an arcade machine/video game console with above specs.

Back in the 8 bit era, I'd have kiboshed any attempt (c16, plus4, c128) at diluting the market for, or generating pointless internal competition to the C64 line, instead focussing on miniaturisation / optimisation of the chipset to reduce costs to keep it a profitable super budget line. Creating a plugin addon for existing devices aimed at upgrading the video capabilities of the C64 architecture, without having to sell a whole new device to existing users or breaking backward software compatibility (think proto-VERA on a cartridge). Bundle this with new c64 devices, sell it as an addon to existing customers, and eventually integrate it onto a c64U (c64 upgraded) board to lower costs and make that the new default model (functionally identical to a C64 classic with expansion).



With 8 bit lifetime extended somewhat due to existing users buying our expansion module in droves, software developers feverishly working on upgraded versions of software leveraging the new capabilities, shift all internal development over to a true 16 / 32 bit successor built out of MOS derived IP, rather than rely on Motorolla. Acquire Hi Toro and merge them into Chip R&D. Aim for something much more akin to the A500 out of the gates, rather than as late, cut down A1000. Attempt to recreate the success of the C64, but getting the most powerful device into as many users hands as cheaply as possible, leveraging vertical production integration. 



Work with productivity software developers to get their tools onto the C2048 (or whatever we end up calling it). Offer the same device in multiple desktop form factors (to satisfy home users and corporates users, but maintaing 100% software compat).



Perhaps buy Atari before Jack ?

11 hours ago, TomXP411 said:

The world needed a $400-500 good computer. Apple understood

Exactly when did Apple "understand" this? They have never been in that price point.

10 hours ago, SlithyMatt said:

Exactly when did Apple "understand" this? They have never been in that price point.

That part is true. The IIC sold for $1200 new. Regardless, Apple worked on building better computers, rather than racing to the bottom. And where Commodore eventually failed, by trying to build cheaper computers and compete with video game consoles, Apple and PC makers succeeded by making computers faster and more powerful. I think it's obvious what the winning strategy was, in the end, since out of Apple, IBM, and Commodore, only one of those companies no longer exists...