Will YMF825 (SD-1) be the ultimate answer to YM2151 (and maybe ymf262)shortage?

[GTR3QQ]

I don't think it's adding any feature that is none existence, it's just a better duel OPL3 card that 8 bit guy showed.

This chip is mostly used for opl3 compatibility, no worries if supplies dried up just use opl3 of fpga opl3.

It's not "just a better", because of the different way that it is designed to be used. The most effective way to integrate it is to add the 65xx bus CPLD SPI bus master, but it's still a risk to be more laggy getting an immediate, unpredictable response when writing through the bottleneck of the cost-reduced serial bus interface. It's a chip design more focused on repeatedly running its script to play the annoying song when the toy is shaken, and not the chip designed to go "pewww" as soon as its register is written, at random, unpredictable intervals because it depends on varying game logic.

The most critical, however, is that it is EOL at Yamaha, so it's just kicking the can down the road as far as the availability issue, but without the safety net of the availability of a working FPGA workalike core, because due to the parallel bus addressed chips being the ones that are sometimes dead in systems people are trying to bring back to life, the focus of development of the FPGA cores is going to be on the parallel bussed chips.

The EOL news means even the OPL3 board should look to replacing the OPL3 with an FPGA workalike core if the OPL3 stocks run low.

If I ever get an opportunity to work on hardware on the X16 CP/M card project, I'm still going to be looking to get some, because it'd make a great sound chip for its SPI focused I/O.

Of course it's not 'just better', Compemrmises need to be made to get it working.
I'm might be wrong, but with VERA PSG+PCM has so many channels, doing SFX on FM might not be need. There will always be but sometimes, so the latency of doing so do require a research with the real thing.
I returned the email asking for replacement or if there is a SD 2 on the way. I don't think they would re roll it just for a thousand or so.
A newer in production chip that can do opl3 is the target here.
But actually, I don't really think the EOL has that big of impact if stocks are OK-ish.
2k should get through entire gen 1 and 2. just limit it to be only opl3 compatible then when out of stock, use opl3 or fpga.

[BruceRMcF]

To my mind, the compromise to get it working of making a chipset replacement board that plugs into the input lines of the YM2151 and the output lines of its DAC chip is at this point a better call than swapping to a serial bussed sound chip, even if that chip is a 4-op, 29 waveform chip. That's the fix that is (1) permanent, because even if the FPGA it originally targets goes out of production, the core design can be ported to a new commodity FPGA chip, and (2) doesn't break any existing code, because FM synthesis is a purely digital process, so a good workalike core results in the same sounds coming out.

I'm might be wrong, but with VERA PSG+PCM has so many channels, doing SFX on FM might not be need. ...

But the OPM is the only sound source with built in hardware ADSR envelopes, so if you want to generate good sound effects while preserving most of your CPU cycles for the game logic and video, you are going to have a tendency to use the FM2151.

IMNSHO, if Vera had been designed with fewer channels but with ADSR envelopes for the channels it had, the YM2151 would be less of a game sound issue and mostly be a chiptunes issue.

But actually, I don't really think the EOL has that big of impact if stocks are OK-ish.
2k should get through entire gen 1 and 2. just limit it to be only opl3 compatible then when out of stock, use opl3 or fpga.

(1) If the deal that they have in the works for the Gen2 system comes off, they would certainly be hoping that 2K will not cover the lifetime demand for Gen2 boards.

If 1,000-2,000 YM2151 chipsets existed, as they thought, I reckon that might have covered the lifetime demand for Dev boards.

(2) As far as "Limit it to be only OPL3 compatible", I don't reckon that is an option on the table.

Part of the appeal of the 8bit style of board is that there aren't guardrails getting between you and the hardware. So the project is going to attract people who want to "play around with it to see what it can do".

If there are 29 waveforms and four operators, somebody is going to stumble across a "real cool sound" where the closest equivalent with 8 waveforms "doesn't sound right".

And I don't know all of the OPL3 capabilities, but does the OPL3 [offer timed register writes? If it doesn't, then, for example, some games are going to take advantage of the timed register writes, and then switching to an OPL3 would be a code breaking change.

[GTR3QQ]

ah. rips. then.
Just an idea that's all. Too sad yamaha axed the chip.

but I think you still don't get me when I say it should replace the opl3
not really the 2151.
Only when they go with that dual opl3 sound card, will this make sense.
Not to replace 2151, but replace the replacement opl3 sound card.
Confused yet?

As for ym2151s, I hear gossip that the supply of that chip is having trouble.
Not that you can't get 1000chips, just that they up the price due to the cost storage had gone through the roof. So they are bartering with companies that do legacy chips only, of which usually changing premiums for a 74 even.
They exist to serve those like military or ones required to have chips replaced with identical one.
That batch of 2151 every one is on about is now in their hands.
They glod plated it and asking for 20 bucks a pop.

I don't mean like to fuse the chip to opl3 only, I'm thinking of only suggesting programs to treat it like opl3.
Like the case of c16 and c max, every one just program for c16.
and ESS 's ESFM, 20voice 4op, every one treat it like opl3, no software written for it's native mode, only the official driver can use it when doing mid.(software I mean trakers, game that use native mode essential use it like GM)
let people to "overclock" it however they want.

[BruceRMcF]

ah. rips. then.
Just an idea that's all. Too sad yamaha axed the chip.

but I think you still don't get me when I say it should replace the opl3
not really the 2151.
Only when they go with that dual opl3 sound card, will this make sense.
Not to replace 2151, but replace the replacement opl3 sound card.

To my mind, an FPGA workalike for an OPL3 core is the superior way to address that as well.

It's a real interesting idea to me for a stand-alone variant of my (as of yet) imaginary X16 CP/M card(s), because it's just one chip and then I can add a speaker to the standalone version, but I reckon a parallel addressed FPGA workalike is the better fall-back option for OPL3's for similar reason that a parallel addressed FPGA workalike is the better fall-back option for the OPM.

As for ym2151s, I hear gossip that the supply of that chip is having trouble.
Not that you can't get 1000chips, just that they up the price due to the cost storage had gone through the roof.

So they are bartering with companies that do legacy chips only, of which usually changing premiums for a 74 even.
They exist to serve those like military or ones required to have chips replaced with identical one.
That batch of 2151 every one is on about is now in their hands.
They glod plated it and asking for 20 bucks a pop.

20 bucks a chip, or 20 bucks a chipset?

In any event, that's in line with what was said in the video ... that they can get some YM2151's, it wasn't clear how many, but the sellers are asking much more for them than they were back in 2019.

If the FPGA board is cheaper or equivalent in cost to the YM2151's, you can make the FPGA board the default. SO it may come down to "this is the base price, including the FPGA workalike for the YM2151 chip, and subject to availability, for a $30 premium you can get a real YM2151. If the supply runs out, we will ask whether you want to wait or you want the premium refunded and we send it with the FPGA workalike board."

I don't mean like to fuse the chip to opl3 only, I'm thinking of only suggesting programs to treat it like opl3.
Like the case of c16 and c max, every one just program for c16.
and ESS 's ESFM, 20voice 4op, every one treat it like opl3, no software written for it's native mode, only the official driver can use it when doing mid.(software I mean trakers, game that use native mode essential use it like GM)
let people to "overclock" it however they want.

That's a lot easier to do when everyone HAS to talk to the chip with a driver, as in a Linux or Windows or MAC OS, because the operating system won't give you access to the bare metal.

In the X16 board, if there is an OPL3 card, then you are going to have programs that work directly with the registers of the OPL3 chip, and switching to a serial bussed chip is going to break code.

[GTR3QQ]

ah. rips. then.
Just an idea that's all. Too sad yamaha axed the chip.

but I think you still don't get me when I say it should replace the opl3
not really the 2151.
Only when they go with that dual opl3 sound card, will this make sense.
Not to replace 2151, but replace the replacement opl3 sound card.

To my mind, an FPGA workalike for an OPL3 core is the superior way to address that as well.

It's a real interesting idea to me for a stand-alone variant of my (as of yet) imaginary X16 CP/M card(s), because it's just one chip and then I can add a speaker to the standalone version, but I reckon a parallel addressed FPGA workalike is the better fall-back option for OPL3's for similar reason that a parallel addressed FPGA workalike is the better fall-back option for the OPM.

As for ym2151s, I hear gossip that the supply of that chip is having trouble.
Not that you can't get 1000chips, just that they up the price due to the cost storage had gone through the roof.

So they are bartering with companies that do legacy chips only, of which usually changing premiums for a 74 even.
They exist to serve those like military or ones required to have chips replaced with identical one.
That batch of 2151 every one is on about is now in their hands.
They glod plated it and asking for 20 bucks a pop.

20 bucks a chip, or 20 bucks a chipset? Because the FPGA board replaces both the OPM and its companion DAC.

That's in line with what was said in the video ... that you can get some YM2151's, it wasn't clear how many, but they are asking much more for them than they were back in 2019. If the FPGA board is cheaper or equivalent in cost to the YM2151's, you can make the FPGA board the default. SO it may come down to "this is the base price, including the FPGA workalike for the YM2151 chip, and subject to availability, for a $30 premium you can get a real YM2151. If the supply runs out, we will ask whether you want to wait or you want the premium refunded and we send it with the FPGA workalike board."

I don't mean like to fuse the chip to opl3 only, I'm thinking of only suggesting programs to treat it like opl3.
Like the case of c16 and c max, every one just program for c16.
and ESS 's ESFM, 20voice 4op, every one treat it like opl3, no software written for it's native mode, only the official driver can use it when doing mid.(software I mean trakers, game that use native mode essential use it like GM)
let people to "overclock" it however they want.

That's a lot easier to do when everyone HAS to talk to the chip with a driver, as in a Linux or Windows or MAC OS, because the operating system won't give you access to the bare metal.

In the X16 board, if there is an OPL3 card, then you are going to have programs that work directly with the registers of the OPL3 chip, and switching to a serial bussed chip is going to break code.

20 for one ym2151, dac is cheaper $3 for one.
also if you're getting 825s get it now. I'm not sure if this 2k chips will go to those Corp. anything time soon.
and no, esfm is register compatible to opl3, not a driver.
2 sets of music files along with targeted chip's play back routine should be it. old ones use patcher.

[BruceRMcF]

20 for one ym2151, dac is cheaper $3 for one.

Aha, so that is why the focus is on the YM2151 itself. Thanks.

also if you're getting 825s get it now. I'm not sure if this 2k chips will go to those Corp. anything time soon.

If I get any opportunity to buy any hardware, I will have to ask some former students if they can get their hands on any.

and no, esfm is register compatible to opl3, not a driver.

I was referring to the YFM825 itself, where the serial bus would definitely have a different assembly routine to access it versus an OPL3 card, and not focusing on the analogy.

2 sets of music files along with targeted chip's play back routine should be it. old ones use patcher.

I still don't see the scenario of starting with the YMF825 as a currently available chip and then falling back to an OPL3 FPGA workalike as a preferred fall-back to starting with OPL3 chips and falling back to an OPL3 FPGA workalike. I'd be skeptical of the first scenario even if the YMF825 was not EOL -- it being EOL seems to me to put a fork in that option.

[GTR3QQ]

20 for one ym2151, dac is cheaper $3 for one.

Aha, so that is why the focus is on the YM2151 itself. Thanks.

also if you're getting 825s get it now. I'm not sure if this 2k chips will go to those Corp. anything time soon.

If I get any opportunity to buy any hardware, I will have to ask some former students if they can get their hands on any.

and no, esfm is register compatible to opl3, not a driver.

I was referring to the YFM825 itself, where the serial bus would definitely have a different assembly routine to access it versus an OPL3 card, and not focusing on the analogy.

2 sets of music files along with targeted chip's play back routine should be it. old ones use patcher.

I still don't see the scenario of starting with the YMF825 as a currently available chip and then falling back to an OPL3 FPGA workalike as a preferred fall-back to starting with OPL3 chips and falling back to an OPL3 FPGA workalike. I'd be skeptical of the first scenario even if the YMF825 was not EOL -- it being EOL seems to me to put a fork in that option.

I kinda speaking on behalf of the people who absolutely loaf the idea of using FPGA. Sure you can get cycle perfect emulation, but it's just not the same.
I'm fine with both. Although I do think I can notice the different from a real one to emulation.
Just sad that real thing can't be used. I'm mean, for only 22cents, hardware perfect FM synth. even cheaper than opl3 it self.
Not all hope lost though, Kenji still not return the email. What if there's a SD 2? You never know.

[GTR3QQ]

Just full of sadness now.
new mail from yamaha says no chip that will do FM from yamaha to replace the SD1. and we're not re roll it even you ask nicely.(interpreted for confidentiality)
I suppose that is the end of opl family.

[BruceRMcF]

... Just sad that real thing can't be used. I'm mean, for only 22cents, hardware perfect FM synth. even cheaper than opl3 it self. ...

That's a perfectly reasonable sentiment, it's just too late in the development cycle of the Dev Board for it to be a practical option.

I kinda speaking on behalf of the people who absolutely loaf the idea of using FPGA. Sure you can get cycle perfect emulation, but it's just not the same.

They're the ones who pay the premium $25 to get an actual chip.

The "FPGA absolutists" may show up in online discussions, but they haven't really been in the market for the board from the beginning, because right from the beginning (at least, as far as the 8bit guy Youtube channel goes), the plan was to use an FPGA to generate the tile/sprite VGA video display.

Just full of sadness now.
new mail from yamaha says no chip that will do FM from yamaha to replace the SD1. and we're not re roll it even you ask nicely.(interpreted for confidentiality)
I suppose that is the end of opl family.

Looking from the outside, in, it looks like it was a legacy chip, allowing toy (& other doo-dad) designers to re-use patches and musical tracks with very few interface pins, so basically you can make the device from a single inexpensive MCU and the sound chip. But as PCM keeps getting cheaper, the built up legacy of PCM samples means that the competitive advantage of re-using the other legacy stockpile diminishes, and as open source FPGA cores proliferate and the capabilities of soft MCU cores in FPGA increases, it becomes ever easier for those still mining a legacy pile of FM resources to do it all in a single chip FPGA solution.

[GTR3QQ]

yeah, i suppose.
Just verified this info.
The whole Shenzhen only has 2k left and that is it.
I'm getting one as a souvenir once I'm free.