Commander X16

On 3/20/2022 at 7:08 AM, Eightbitfreak said:

If they didn't they would make the blue prints available online for free.

Assuming two possible states -- trying to get rich, or giving away for free -- when the reality is something else is sometimes called a "false dichotomy", and sometimes called a "misplaced middle".

On 3/20/2022 at 5:08 AM, Eightbitfreak said:

If they didn't they would make the blue prints available online for free. If they did i would have had a working cx16 long ago, and probably a few copies available on eBay for you guys.

All of this - design, prototyping,  coding, testing, debugging - requires time and money up front. David Murray is out at least ten grand out of pocket. 

Patience.

On 3/20/2022 at 5:08 AM, Eightbitfreak said:

If they didn't they would make the blue prints available online for free. If they did i would have had a working cx16 long ago, and probably a few copies available on eBay for you guys.

The middle ground that is alluded to in other posts is "Let's build a machine using Cloanto IP which requires restrictions; then, when it is finished and complete, sell it at the lowest price point possible that allows people who invested money to recoup their investment."

On 3/21/2022 at 4:37 AM, Ed Minchau said:

All of this - design, prototyping,  coding, testing, debugging - requires time and money up front. David Murray is out at least ten grand out of pocket

Prototyping cost pennies. If you thinking about your time spent in front of your screen rounting traces, and building the prototype just think about community who creates content for this project, or Adrian ( digital basement) fixing it for free. I don't know where all the money went that Dave and Peri spent but my guess is the fancy keyboards, cases and all this crap that supposed to make "nostalgia unboxing" experience, but i think most of us here don't really care, we want the device ?

On 3/20/2022 at 6:02 PM, Eightbitfreak said:

Prototyping cost pennies. If you thinking about your time spent in front of your screen rounting traces, and building the prototype just think about community who creates content for this project, or Adrian ( digital basement) fixing it for free. I don't know where all the money went that Dave and Peri spent but my guess is the fancy keyboards, cases and all this crap that supposed to make "nostalgia unboxing" experience, but i think most of us here don't really care, we want the device ?

Prototyping does not cost pennies unless you happen to have all the components lying around just waiting to be put into use. There've been several revisions of mother boards. Shipping things internationally. Web site hosting, domain registrations. That's all off the top of my head, I'm sure others can come up with more. It may not be five figures, but it is definitely more than pennies, and it doesn't take into account any volunteer hours spent in front of a keyboard.

Your point about keyboards is legit, but its still an expense. If I had to guess I'd say it is the single biggest expense, but that is just a guess, not knowledge. Maybe if he had it to do over again he wouldn't go the keyboard route. I don't know.

Ultimately it doesn't matter. He has spent what he has spent. He deserves a chance to recoup that expense. Other people who want to create a retro computer platform with different considerations are free to do so.

Money goes fast.  Surprisingly so.  There can be so much more to a big project than taking a couple weekends with some electronic components ordered from Mouser and an oscilloscope.  Especially if you have a particular vision.

So does time, especially since life is complicated.  And then if you have to coordinate with a few other volunteers.  Do I have to mention how volunteer projects are different from work?

 

HOWEVER, if we really want to pull together in order to push this over the finish line, I know of one thing the X16 lacks and needs, and that's the IEC interface.

 

If you really want to get the X16 closer to the finish line, then let's organize, elect someone foreman/referee, present your skillset, let him consult with the rest of the team and organize the features that need to be done, then the team breaks the features down, sizes each story, and delegates them out.  That includes figuring out how to test them with the emulator.

 

Perhaps on one of the dedicated IEC threads.

On 3/21/2022 at 11:35 AM, Scott Robison said:

Prototyping does not cost pennies

Pennies i mean they should fit within 1k excluding their labour. Prototyping within these clock speeds are relatively easy. Even if he spent 2k Dave will have his "dream computer" with the help of community. 2k isn't that much for what he gets and the influence he has. Im not aware of any international shipping apart from maybe ordering the parts, PCB, Vera board etc but that is the nature of any project, even if you purchase the parts in your local store, they also had to be shipped and the cost is included. I know the entire board was shipped to Adrian but he (or community) could have worked it out just from the schematic. 

 

On 3/21/2022 at 11:35 AM, Scott Robison said:

Other people who want to create a retro computer platform with different considerations are free to do so.

 Yes. But first you have to build a community and Dave has it already and we all know the community isn't that big.

 

Going a bit off topic: i think the platform will fail for several reasons. Number one is the ATX format and desktop case. Back in the days buying desktop computer with separate keyboard was more like getting a powerful machine, usually post 8-bit era. I don't know why anyone would hide 8 bit sexy looking board in a desktop case that we are using this days with modern components. This definitely isn't nostalgic.

Reason number two: They are making this project too complicated that is causing all the delays and further costs. Anyone who was working on a project knows that new ideas comes along, but this can be a nightmare when you start drifting from your original idea and trying to make it "better". What i mean is all the variants of the board. They should stick with the DIP and SMD versions for now, DIP being purely DIY for hardcore thru hole pervs like me ;), and the SMD obviously fully assembled with tech support and returns, for those who don't mind hiding it in a case and never open it. They decided to go FPGA version as well as some x8 hardware semi-compatible crap that will imo fragment this already small group of enthusiasts. I think these are great ideas but they should come after the main product is released.

On 3/21/2022 at 12:54 AM, BruceMcF said:

Assuming two possible states -- trying to get rich, or giving away for free -- when the reality is something else is sometimes called a "false dichotomy", and sometimes called a "misplaced middle".

Hey Bruce. I have read tons of comments of yours. I like your philosophical approach ? yes we went from making profit to getting rich, it's all relative. It's always good to learn something about imo the most important subject, we didn't learn at school anyone should know at least the basis of philosophy. But if we did our conversations would be kinda boring ?

 

On 3/20/2022 at 10:51 PM, Eightbitfreak said:

Pennies i mean they should fit within 1k excluding their labour. Prototyping within these clock speeds are relatively easy. Even if he spent 2k Dave will have his "dream computer" with the help of community. 2k isn't that much for what he gets and the influence he has. Im not aware of any international shipping apart from maybe ordering the parts, PCB, Vera board etc but that is the nature of any project, even if you purchase the parts in your local store, they also had to be shipped and the cost is included. I know the entire board was shipped to Adrian but he (or community) could have worked it out just from the schematic.

I guess everything costs pennies. $2000 is just 200,000 pennies after all. But clearly they've spent more, if for no other reason than a large presumably non-refundable payment for keyboards that will eventually be used as part of the final product. And when you think about it, the costs so far, even if they are pennies, is a drop in the bucket compared to the eventual exposure that the project will have when buying all the parts to manufacture hundreds or thousands of computers.

As for international shipping, Frank is an international collaborator on the project so I would assume that international shipments have been made.

In the end all I have to go on is David's word that he has invested five figures. He's been honest with me in other dealings I've had with him so I have no reason to doubt him at this time. Any money spent on the project is money he would like to see returned eventually, and I don't blame him, so I'm not going to quibble over what may or may not be legitimate prototyping expenses.