Commander X16

27 minutes ago, BruceMcF said:

I wouldn't target the X8 explicitly, but then if using Block files as mass storage, a lot of what I could do in Forth could be ported, it would just be substantially faster on the CX16 than on the X8 (12MHz notwithstanding).

I started thinking about that too.  I think the speed boost but the slight incompatibility and capability reduction (if that’s the term) creates two ecosystems for the price of one.

Performant code — faster games and perhaps even a 3rd gen interpreter - use the X8.

Bigger, perhaps more resource demanding code, as well as expansion based code, would use the X16.

3 minutes ago, rje said:

I started thinking about that too.  I think the speed boost but the slight incompatibility and capability reduction (if that’s the term) creates two ecosystems for the price of one.

From remembering the eighties, there are very few things where a 50% clock boost will be a bigger effective performance advantage than 512K or more of RAM available as a RAM disk or external data object store.

9 minutes ago, BruceMcF said:

From remembering the eighties, there are very few things where a 50% clock boost will be a bigger effective performance advantage than 512K or more of RAM available as a RAM disk or external data object store.

Of course if your software fits in RAM and doesn't access a disk, the CPU speed matters more, unless the speed of RAM isn't increased along with the CPU clock, generally speaking.

17 minutes ago, Carl Gundel said:

Of course if your software fits in RAM and doesn't access a disk, the CPU speed matters more, unless the speed of RAM isn't increased along with the CPU clock, generally speaking.

The software where everything fits comfortably into 64K RAM (well, 54K of RAM taking system RAM use into account) are the "very few things" that I was referring to.

How quickly people have forgotten how little room 64K of RAM really is.

Just now, BruceMcF said:

How quickly people have forgotten how little room 64K of RAM really is.

In fairness, until  the last couple days the enthusiasts on this forum didn't really have to care.    It's only the pivot to discussion of the X8 that raises the issue of ram scarcity. 

   

At the risk of repeating myself (ok, I *am* repeating myself) I just don't understand why we can't be given more information (read: ALL the information) about the X8.  And access to the emulator.

Also @The 8-Bit Guy, if you really do think it'll take only 1 or 2 hours to port Petscii Robots (or maybe just "get it working"), can't you find that time to give us the lowdown on the experience?

 

Had some rest since this thread came out and here goes my second thoughts on this X8 platform :

First, release all the technical details on the X8 with its emulator and let people have a look at it for a week or two. Make a FAQ thread to collect community's questions about it. Redo a proper survey like on Google Forms and broadcast it on the YT channel, FB page, etc to get as many feedback as possible.

Second, do understand that people may not be willing to use that new platform. All these years of learning for the X16 only to be changed to a restrained version of it. I'll personally never release any X8 software, not interested enough (that doesn't mean I won't code anything, though). This push of the X8 feel so pressed it's just suspicious to me. It just fell off like it was always there and people waited for it. I'm not. It's my choice to avoid it, I'm here for the X16, not a ripoff of it (sorry for the word I can't find a more suitable one) that is creating conflicts inside the community. My first point can eventually resolve my concerns.

Third, it's not because I'm ranting here (something I do too often I think) that I don't want to see this project released. It's the absolute contrary ! Release a donation link and I would gladly donate to it.

All of this mess just zapped away my will to work on the X16. I'm pausing until things cool off.

19 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

The X8 could be available immediately and be well under $50.  I'm not sure how far under $50.  I'd say as low as $25 and as high as $50.  

If you announced the X8 coming out now for $50, it'll be a case of "shut up and take my money". 

The main problem with kit forms for me are that my hands are too unstable for soldering.. In fact, they're that bad, I'm having to get a friend of a family friend to do a composite mod on my Atari 7800.. 

I’ve been following this project since your first video.

My first choice would be a first phase assembled, my soldering skills may never get the kit working.  The second phase would be my backup with the third as only if I can’t get the first 2.

I liked the case shown but can find one and install it.

As for the x8, if you sell it to raise money to bring out the x16 I would definitely buy one, might buy one anyway you can’t have too many SBCs.

So, I'm just going to answer a few more concerns about the X8.

One person said I was clearly in favor of this, or something to that effect.  Well, I made that clear at the beginning. I wanted to release it 6 months ago.  I haven't tried to cover that up.

Several people seemed concerned about how much money I was going to make from this project and how the X8 might reduce that.  I know I have said this before, but I'll say it again.  This project was NEVER about money for me.  In fact, I've made it clear many times that I never intended to profit from this project at all.  All profits made from the X16 would be split between Kevin, Frank, Michael, Perifractic, and a few other people.  I have told the entire time many times I didn't want anything.  I'd rather my "profit" be sacrificed to help reduce the cost of the system.  My main goal was to have my dream computer, and that other people would have it too.  Now, if it ends up selling millions of units, ok, we'll re-visit that conversation.  But that's not likely.

I haven't released the emulator for the obvious reason that if this product is to be buried and never see the light of day, I'd rather the emulator just not be out there.  So we'll release that if it is decided to go forward with it.

I suppose I could find some time next week to port Petscii Robots to the X8 for demonstration, since some people were asking about that.  It shouldn't take long. Petscii Robots doesn't use any banked RAM.  After all, it was originally designed for a computer with 32K.   However, I was going to be using banked RAM for the new soundtrack eventually.  But at the same time, having access to the SD card can compensate for that.  I could load each song in as needed, for example, rather than storing them all in RAM at once.

Some people seem confused on why I'm in favor of releasing this.  So I'm going to open up and totally lay it out here.  This is my honest opinion on that matter:  The X16 has taken much longer to bring to market that I thought.  There were many times where development was halted for 6 months or more because of unsolvable bugs.  And even though we are close to being able to release a kit fo the X16, it's going to still take more time to get this out the door and the people wanting fully assembled systems will be waiting extra time. The X16 is definitely happening.  The X8 is not meant as a replacement for it.  But, I felt like the X8 with it's super-low price-tag and easy manufacturing could help keep interest in the project much like "The C64 Mini" did, even though everyone was wanting a full-sized machine.  This would keep development on-going, and most anything made for the X8 could easily be ported to the X16 later.    I do not believe X8 sales will cannibalize X16p sales.   And sales of the X8 could even help to fund more development on the X16 surface-mount version and eventual X8-FPGA version.  And for those people that don't want an X8, it seems like the solution is simple.  Just don't buy one.  Buy the X16p instead.  Or wait for phase-2, or whatever.