Commander X16

BruceRMcF wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 7:00 pm

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:13 pm Thank you.

Let me ask a direct question:

a) Will there ever be a Commander X16 product that looks like a home computer straight out of the 80s? A "bulky keyboard" that, if switched on, and is connected to an old VGA monitor, immediately displays the logo and a blinking BASIC cursor?
b) if "yes", will that product have a "real" non-emulated 6502 processor?

I'm not interested in any product that looks like a "board". The exact size of the motherboard is immaterial since you can't see it without opening up the case.


Thanks

The keyboard case is one reason the Mega65 costs over US$700.

• When you turn on a Commander X16, it displays the logo and a blinking cursor, unless you have a Basic program named AUTOEXEC.X16 that makes it do something else.
• The design team has announced that the Phase 1 "through pin real chips" board won't be sold with it's own case. With the right choice of case, an old school VGA monitor can sit on the case. If you find a 3rd party bulky keyboard case for a micro-ATX, it'd be heading more toward an AppleII bulky keyboard than a C64.
• We don't yet know whether the "mostly surface mount but real chips" board (Phase 2) will have an option of its own case, but if it does, it will be an existing mini-ITX case with a customized front -- at this scale, making your own mold for a keyboard case is not cost effective. A keyboard case would be 3rd party, but it'd work with a smaller one, because of the smaller board.
• It seems like the Phase 3 board, if it is ever created, would comfortably fit into keyboard cases designed for things like a Raspberry Pi, but it'd not an ASIC, it'd be an FPGA simulating the 6502 and other chips in hardware.

This reply appears to complete contradict the previous reply.

If none of the phases offers a 80s looking one-in-all computer with a genuine 6502 chip inside, I must honestly confess you have managed to let slip what Dave was talking about in his initial dream machine texts and videos.

The Mega65 looks fantastic. But it contains modern stuff, plus it emulates a machine I don't have any nostalgic connection to.

Obviously your customers will want to have a computer in a box that looks like an 80s computer. Making your own cases to fit the board, or using off-the-shelf PC cases, I consider merely development phases.

It isn't until you have designed a case that is unique to the CX16, ideally oozing with 8-bit era nostalgic goodness, with a working 8-bit computer powered by a real 6502 processor inside, that your job is done.

As far as Dave's initial target of 50-200 dollars I immediately understood that to be unrealistic. There simply is no point in tring to replicate the Sinclair way in this day and age. Everybody interested will be in their middle age with disposable income. Inflation also means that $50 is an absurd goal in the year 2023.

I'd much rather have something truly nice than something I can't pretend it actually was made in 1984

I understand your concerns and how you feel about this project. But I think David was never talking about an all-in-one machine. Actually if I remember correctly in the beginning he was quite unspecific about a case.
Personally I would prefer a wedge shape case myself, so I set out to design one:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5170783 This one would fit the phase 2 board. For the phase 1 it would have to be extended at the back - which I will do these days, maybe someone with a phase 1 board would want use the design. But unless someone steps up to produce this case in numbers and assemble keyboard and board, you won't be able to buy a ready to use machine like this. I don't have the cash to fund something like this and I doubt someone else will or a fundraiser would work.

AndyMt wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 8:46 amPersonally I would prefer a wedge shape case myself, so I set out to design one:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5170783
fronright.jpeg

Very nice!

While I'm somewhat sentimentally attached to the all-in-one wedge shape form factor, these days I would prefer a retro system with a separate PS/2 or (preferably, due to availability) USB keyboard, because I'd like to hook it up to a KVM and use my regular keyboard/mouse.

Of course, if the all-in-one had an external keyboard/mouse option (nothing fancy, a removable loopback dongle or cable would be fine), I'd consider it perfect.

Another issue is expandability. In my view, a retro system MUST have an expansion slot or cartridge port of some sorts. That rules out Phase III for me, and probably Phase II as well.

Ser Olmy wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 9:57 amVery nice!

While I'm somewhat sentimentally attached to the all-in-one wedge shape form factor, these days I would prefer a retro system with a separate PS/2 or (preferably, due to availability) USB keyboard, because I'd like to hook it up to a KVM and use my regular keyboard/mouse.

Thanks!
And I agree that wedge shape cases which include the keyboard have their drawbacks. I myself will kind of "waste" 2 separate keyboards for 2 machines: the current one which hosts a MiSTer/Raspberry combo (incl. a KVM switch) and the second one hosting the X16.
But I would never get the right retro-feel out of a pizza-box style machine. Those I associate with the PCs of the 90's which I found mostly boring and uninspiring (compared to my Atari ST)...

And yes - this case won't have space for expansion cards. Maybe a 90° raiser card could allow for one expansion card.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:55 am This reply appears to complete contradict the previous reply.

If none of the phases offers a 80s looking one-in-all computer with a genuine 6502 chip inside, I must honestly confess you have managed to let slip what Dave was talking about in his initial dream machine texts and videos.

What Dave was talking about was how the computer works and what the computer is made from, not the looks of the computer, so no, not having it look like a breadboard or wedge C64 doesn't "let slip" what he was talking about. You are mixing together what he was saying and what it evoked in your imagination.

However, Phase 2 definitely allows it, because there are keyboard all-in-one mini-ITX cases out there, though for the obvious cost reasons for a low volume custom case (see the cost of the C64x case), it's be nearly as much for the case as for the system.

The Mega65 looks fantastic. But it contains modern stuff, plus it emulates a machine I don't have any nostalgic connection to.

Obviously your customers will want to have a computer in a box that looks like an 80s computer. Making your own cases to fit the board, or using off-the-shelf PC cases, I consider merely development phases.

There are several overlapping market segments. Those that not only want that but that want it to look more like a C64c than a C128D are going to have to spend $150+ to achieve that, because that's how economies of scale work.

If a complete system option is available in the cost reduced Phase 2 board, the case is basically already designed, back when Perifractic was on the "look and feel" part of the design team, so go have a look at how that looks.

So even if the project reaches Phase 2, the customers that want to have a computer in a box that looks like an 80s computer are going to have to choose between a possible complete in the case system that looks more like a C128D (though smaller), or getting an out of the case system and putting out almost as much more money again to get one that looks more like a C64 or Atari 800 XL.

Obviously a mini-ITX case with a customized front end is not going to look like a 1980s style IBM PC/XT/AT ... a mini-ITX case is going to be much smaller than a 1980s style business desktop.

It isn't until you have designed a case that is unique to the CX16, ideally oozing with 8-bit era nostalgic goodness, with a working 8-bit computer powered by a real 6502 processor inside, that your job is done.

That's when it's your Dream Computer. Dave's Dream Computer is about the experience of using it and being able to understand what is inside it.

As far as Dave's initial target of 50-200 dollars I immediately understood that to be unrealistic. There simply is no point in tring to replicate the Sinclair way in this day and age. Everybody interested will be in their middle age with disposable income. Inflation also means that $50 is an absurd goal in the year 2023.

But for some part of the market, the $200-$300 (guessing) for the Phase 2 will be out of reach. So for people that want the keyboard case and don't have enough money left over for the Phase 2 board to put in it, Phase 3 might be the go.

I'd much rather have something truly nice than something I can't pretend it actually was made in 1984

You mean your 1984, not 1984 in general.

AndyMt wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 8:46 am ...
Personally I would prefer a wedge shape case myself, so I set out to design one:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5170783
fronright.jpeg

Ooo! I like it! Nice! I assume you can turn off the RGB on the keyboard... I'm strictly a "NO-RGBer." The point at which people thought it was a good idea to slap RGB lights on everything is the point where civilization was in full collapse.

It needs slots for the SD-cards (plural) on the top! The phase 2 design would need to support a plurality there, and have them connect in a modular manner so they can reach the mounting positions. If only SD card readers used some kind of low wire count standard interface like SPI or something. ... Wait.

At the same time, though, it's hard to argue against the pure utilitarianism of the separate mouse / keyboard connected via PS/2. So I'm still leaning for as small a form factor case as possible with 2 SD-cards on the front.

As to the whole "No FPGAs! No ASICs! etc, crowd. What? No! custom chips are what made graphics and sound even possible in the 80's. If Commodore had to design the VIC and SID and GAL and CIO and whatever else custom chip is in the C64 with discreet parts the thing would be as big as a suitcase and cost well over a grand in 1980's money. The last I checked, virtually no one wants to play retro games on a TRS-80 model 1. (No custom chips in there!)

That said, I agree with "No emulation" as in "No Raspberry Pi software emulating a 65C02", but using an FPGA to replace the entire 65C02 core and it's RAM/ROM/Peripheral chips? That's just smart! It's STILL a 65C02... it's just implemented in discreet logic cells connected by a programmable interconnection fabric instead of discreet logic elements hard printed onto a die. You can't actually "SEE" either of those implementations. I can see where some people would want to "collect" the hard core, old school parts made in the 80's in 40 pin DIP packages and assemble those into computers... but that's going to cost, and really... how big is that segment of the market? You can literally just buy computers made in the 80's on E-Bay.

Daedalus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:01 pm It needs slots for the SD-cards (plural) on the top! The phase 2 design would need to support a plurality there, and have them connect in a modular manner so they can reach the mounting positions. If only SD card readers used some kind of low wire count standard interface like SPI or something. ... Wait.

There is always a solution like this.



_______________________

Daedalus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:01 pm As to the whole "No FPGAs! No ASICs! etc, crowd. What? No! custom chips are what made graphics and sound even possible in the 80's. If Commodore had to design the VIC and SID and GAL and CIO and whatever else custom chip is in the C64 with discreet parts the thing would be as big as a suitcase and cost well over a grand in 1980's money. The last I checked, virtually no one wants to play retro games on a TRS-80 model 1. (No custom chips in there!)

The original goal was "no FPGAs", but when it became apparent that no "80s style hardware tile/sprite video chip" existed that would also meet the goal of "an upgraded experience compared to a real Vic-20 / C64 / Atari 800 XL / Apple II", they had to adopt that exact position for that same reason -- at this scale, the only technology that works for giving an "80s style hardware tile/sprite video chip" is an FPGA.

So they've amended that goal to "No FPGAs as far as practicable" for the Phase1/Phase2 boards.

That said, I agree with "No emulation" as in "No Raspberry Pi software emulating a 65C02", but using an FPGA to replace the entire 65C02 core and it's RAM/ROM/Peripheral chips? That's just smart! It's STILL a 65C02... it's just implemented in discreet logic cells connected by a programmable interconnection fabric instead of discreet logic elements hard printed onto a die. You can't actually "SEE" either of those implementations.

But with the ASIC chip, you can "see" where the A0 memory address line goes to the A0 address line of each RAM chip, the ROM chip, the VIA, the slots, etc. With an FPGA doing the 6502 / VIA / glue logic / FM chip / etc., that part is missing.

So horses for courses ... that's the idea of Phase 3,. Since you have the Phase 1 board made with the general types of parts available in the 80s ... if you squint and imagine the Vera daughter-board as "a big chip" in its own right ... then you CAN trace out where all the different chips go together, you are just doing it on a picture of the Phase 1 board rather than on the Phase 1 board itself. And even if it has two FPGA's (one of them Vera itself), a 512KB SRAM and a 512KB FlashROM, it should be able to be sold in the $50-$100 bracket somewhere.

I can see where some people would want to "collect" the hard core, old school parts made in the 80's in 40 pin DIP packages and assemble those into computers... but that's going to cost, and really... how big is that segment of the market? You can literally just buy computers made in the 80's on E-Bay.

For me ... if I didn't have so many grandkids, I'd be in line for a Phase1 release, but I do have that many grandkids, so I am hanging on hoping Phase 1 is successful enough to allow Phase 2 to be made.

@AndyMT, that case looks fantastic! I think I'm going to pick up some plastic this weekend and start printing!

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:55 am your customers

This gives me the impression that you don't realize who you are talking to. This is the X16 community forum, and not a company selling the X16. We are just hobbyists and enthusiasts here. I don't even know if anyone here actually represents Dave or his company, or will see any profits from sales of the Commander X16.

CapnZapp wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 7:45 am I don't understand how you can say "the X16 phase 1 is almost exactly what you'd want it to be"? (Why aren't there any mock-up pictures that roughly show what we're talking about??)

To the best of my knowledge, a case is in the works. It seems that this is the only criteria that you are considering, despite mentioning "real 6502" multiple times. To re-iterate, the X16 will likely ship with:

• a case (I've seen a photo of a recent prototype, but it's probably not ready to be announced too publicly)
• a real through-hole 65c02
• a real FM2151 sound chip
• a VERA daughter board with VGA and composite video output, PSG sound, and PCM sample capabilities
• a custom keyboard with PETSCII characters printed on the keys
• a built-in SD card reader

What exactly do you see as missing? Is it that you can't see a mockup of the case today? Is that all? I'm sure something will be posted if/when an official case is decided on, but I suspect it will increase the price considerably. It might even be sold as an option.

Still, this seems to have everything originally targeted. There's even a community-written User's Guide that some lazy bum is slowly writing (https://github.com/X16Community/x16-user-guide in case you wanted to submit some PRs). As far as I can tell, Phase 1 is set to deliver as promised.

Jestin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:54 pm ... To the best of my knowledge, a case is in the works.

... Is that all? I'm sure something will be posted if/when an official case is decided on, but I suspect it will increase the price considerably. It might even be sold as an option. ...

The announcement was made a little while back (maybe early last year?) that they were not going through with the micro-ATX case option. There's a minimum order size requirement to get the customization of the front included with an order, and I take it that with the number of Phase 1 board that they could assemble (as each one involves substantial hand assembly) and the numbers that they already knew from feedback were going to go to people who already had or knew what case they wanted to use,

They are already in the hole by a number of thousands of dollars for the customized keyboards, which hopefully they will recoup with the Phase 1 main release, but they just were not prepared to risk satisfying most of the demand for the Phase 1 type boards and enough get purchased without cases that they are stuck sitting with 100's of cases that didn't get ordered along with the boards.

And by contrast, if they have a kickstarter (though not at the Kickstarter site itself), that has to be set at numbers that cover the cost of the case, and then they are under pressure to hand-assemble those boards, because when you crowdfund and parts of the crowd got their gear half a year ago and others are still waiting, that has the risk of generating a lot of stink around a project.

Phase 2 would be a different situation ... since the cost-reduced board would be mostly or all surface mount parts, which can be assemble by a pick and place machine and soldered in a solder oven, the scale that they can work with is bigger. If they crowd-fund the complete systems, then if they don't make the numbers required for the customizations to the mini-ITX case, it just wouldn't launch. Also by that time the keyboards would be reorders rather than the minimum original order to cover the printing of the key tops.

BruceRMcF wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 5:31 pm

Jestin wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 3:54 pm ... To the best of my knowledge, a case is in the works.

... Is that all? I'm sure something will be posted if/when an official case is decided on, but I suspect it will increase the price considerably. It might even be sold as an option. ...

The announcement was made a little while back (maybe early last year?) that they were not going through with the micro-ATX case option. There's a minimum order size requirement to get the customization of the front included with an order, and I take it that with the number of Phase 1 board that they could assemble (as each one involves substantial hand assembly) and the numbers that they already knew from feedback were going to go to people who already had or knew what case they wanted to use,

David has managed to come up with something even better. IMO, this one just screams "80s 8-bit".