Kit Version Viability

[rje]

On 8/29/2020 at 12:27 PM, StephenHorn said:

I fully expect I'll be purchasing a pre-assembled X16. But as one of those folks who are more on the novice end of soldering, I'm not sure if I'll buy a kit:

1. 
   I fully expect to bollocks something up.
   


2. 
   I may never even realize my error, as it would be the largest kit I'd ever attempted and I might not finish it. ?
   

That said, I'm still somewhat interested in trying, and I'd like to learn more about troubleshooting problems when I do make mistakes.

This is exactly my sentiment. 

I can solder a header onto a Raspberry Pi Zero.  But I lack the experience and equipment for the inevitable troubleshooting -- I mean if those guys on YouTube make mistakes on computer kits, my odds are very poor.

Don't Fear The Soldering Iron has been my mantra for decades.   So while I cannot buy the kit, I am yet drawn to it.  It's a KIT!!!  But I'm going to buy the pre-built version because, as Clint Eastwood taught us, a man's got to know his limitations.

 

 

 

[BruceMcF]

By contrast my approach to soldering where soldering was absolutely necessary would be "get it working in a breadboard then go to Shenzhen and leave the soldering to the pros"

Since there are going to be assembled boards, I am just going to take the economies of scale cost reduction that implies and say"thank you very much, let's get some programming tools on this thing".

[Starsickle]

I think the boards should come as fully assembled as possible. The last time I made my own board and soldered it, it exploded because of a very small short and destroyed a lead, which then required a patch wire.

This is one of those things I think will need to be done on the safe and costly side because the hazards of someone destroying their own product (Very bad) )or harming themselves are very high, even if they'd done hobby projects before.

And, as stated above - not everyone has the tools and skills to diagnose electrical problems.

If you think of it in terms of added cost - I'd gladly pay to avoid the hours and hours of work (I don't consider my own labor cheap) that troubleshooting would require if the cost per wave-solder machine job on a single unit is far less expensive. I have a hunch that the wave-solder machine is not as expensive as I am. EDIT: It also does a better job, every time.

[BruceMcF]

1 hour ago, Starsickle said:

I think the boards should come as fully assembled as possible. The last time I made my own board and soldered it, it exploded because of a very small short and destroyed a lead, which then required a patch wire.



This is one of those things I think will need to be done on the safe and costly side because the hazards of someone destroying their own product (Very bad) )or harming themselves are very high, even if they'd done hobby projects before.



And, as stated above - not everyone has the tools and skills to diagnose electrical problems.



If you think of it in terms of added cost - I'd gladly pay to avoid the hours and hours of work (I don't consider my own labor cheap) that troubleshooting would require if the cost per wave-solder machine job on a single unit is far less expensive. I have a hunch that the wave-solder machine is not as expensive as I am. EDIT: It also does a better job, every time.

Note that fully assembled boards are promised, the question is whether kits will ALSO be offered.

My point is, if people think in terms of the assembled boards having an added cost, then they are being a bit naive about the full range of costs of something like this. There is no reason for the full cost-to-market of a kit of a project this complex to be cheaper than an assembled board, and with no cost savings to bring it to market, there's no reason to expect the kit to have a lower price.

[TomXP411]

10 hours ago, Starsickle said:

I think the boards should come as fully assembled as possible. The last time I made my own board and soldered it, it exploded because of a very small short and destroyed a lead, which then required a patch wire.



This is one of those things I think will need to be done on the safe and costly side because the hazards of someone destroying their own product (Very bad) )or harming themselves are very high, even if they'd done hobby projects before.



And, as stated above - not everyone has the tools and skills to diagnose electrical problems.



If you think of it in terms of added cost - I'd gladly pay to avoid the hours and hours of work (I don't consider my own labor cheap) that troubleshooting would require if the cost per wave-solder machine job on a single unit is far less expensive. I have a hunch that the wave-solder machine is not as expensive as I am. EDIT: It also does a better job, every time.

The computers will be sold as completely assembled units. 

You MAY ALSO be able to buy bare boards and kit boards.... but someone pointed out in the FB group (I can't find the original post) that this can actually be MORE expensive to manufacture than a fully built system. Wholesale electronic manufacturers buy parts and materials in quantity and have a streamlined  process for building systems. I've ordered some electronics kits in the past, and they're not actually cheaper than buying a similar, completely manufactured device 

I'd suggest that if you really want a kit PC, look at something like RC2014, Altairduino, or even the Mini PET kit that David demoed on his channel a few days ago. Those are the kind of small quantity projects where kits are more efficient. 

 

[Perifractic]

For the record, I don't think anyone on the team has said that the kit might cost more than the assembled version... correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Starsickle]

2 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

Note that fully assembled boards are promised, the question is whether kits will ALSO be offered.

 

1 hour ago, TomXP411 said:

You MAY ALSO be able to buy bare boards and kit boards...

Yikes - I misread. Apologies. Although - one would need a business attorney to understand the potential liability involved with such a thing, as well as the expectations for support.

[TomXP411]

3 hours ago, Perifractic said:

For the record, I don't think anyone on the team has said that the kit might cost more than the assembled version... correct me if I'm wrong though.

Someone on the FB group definitely said it can actually cost more to make a kit than to sell fully assembled boards. However, FB's search is just plain broken, returning posts that don't even contain the word "kit" when I searched for it. So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Perifractic]

Fair enough. Rule of thumb, until we announce anything in official announcements, pay it little mind... [emoji4]

[BruceMcF]

6 hours ago, Perifractic said:

For the record, I don't think anyone on the team has said that the kit might cost more than the assembled version... correct me if I'm wrong though.

Bad habit as an economist ... when I say cost, I mean the cost to the seller to bring it to market, not the price to the buyer.

What would blow out supply cost would be providing full technical support for a kit build. That would definitely cost more to bring to market and support.

However, there is a strong perception among people that there is a big cost reduction in bringing a full parts kit to  the market, for a project of this scale ... not mass production but not small batch production either.

I am guessing that is based an imagining the extra build cost and not for a minute imagining the extra stocking costs of a full parts kit... plus extra packaging cost and greater risk of damage in shipment (bent pins are why they ship Arduino Shields with pin headers to solder on, not build cost).

At the likely scale of this project, the build overheads will not be as high as people think when they are used to small runs.

I'm not saying anything has been said that the PRICE would be higher, just that the full cost to bring a complete parts kit to market and to bring an assembled board to market would not be as far apart as a lot of people imagine ... and it's up in the air which one would be  the lower supply cost.