Simplest Computers

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:27 am

Much like koalas, apparently my brain is smooth and the technical ability of the X16 and other 8-Bit computers from the 80's go way over my head. I'm just curious if anybody has heard of a more simple computer that somebody like me could get into learning how computers work so that when the X16 comes out I have a sort of foundation to help make the learning curve easier. I guess even if not a computer maybe some suggestions for starting points could be nice. I've tried playing around in BASIC on TheC64 and I quickly realized that my brain and the computer interpret logic very differently lol.

Cyber · Post by **Cyber** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:41 am

Since X16 is 6502-based, I think this Ben Eater's video series should be a good introduction to 6502-world: Build a 65c02-based computer from scratch

SlithyMatt · Post by **SlithyMatt** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:58 am

You may want to cut back on the Eucalyptus, while you're at it. ?

It's hard to get simpler than the X16 and have that simplicity make programming for it easier. What you get is something like the Atari 2600 which is so simple doing even the most basic things becomes incredibly challenging. I think the X16 hits a real sweet spot for being simple enough to understand holistically, but capable enough to make it easy to develop for with minimal frustration.

But I do agree that Ben Eater's videos are a great way to understand how the 65C02 works on a basic hardware level and what a minimal computer looks like with just the bare minimum components doing what is needed to function. I tried to model my own Assembly Tutorial videos on Ben's approach to the hardware and gently guide people into Assembly development for the X16, building it up piece by piece.

kelli217 · Post by **kelli217** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:41 am

Some of the books available back in the day for teaching BASIC to beginners have been scanned and put online. That includes the user guides for the PET and VIC-20 and 64, but also books by third parties.

The user's guides can be found at http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/manuals/ and one of the better third party books can be found at https://archive.org/details/Compute_s_Programming_the_Commodore_64_The_Definitive_Guide

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:16 pm

All of those things are really good tips! Thanks everybody. I will need to look into these further!

paulscottrobson · Post by **paulscottrobson** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:28 pm

When you say "how they work", can you program already, say in Java or C#, but want to get down to the nitty gritty of the internals ? or that you are starting programming from scratch ?

If so, I would suggest either the Ben Eater series on the 6502 or possibly a PIC16F84 based kit - like say Velleman K8048. Both are programmed in Assembler which is (almost) as low as you can go - one is a microprocessor, the other a microcontroller, but they operate at the same very basic levels and will give you an idea what's going on 'under the hood'.

For starting programming, on retro machines you might want to have a look at the Vic20 user guide - you can use an emulator, that costs nothing. It's not that the Vic is a particularly powerful machine, more that it has a very beginner friendly "try these" manual.

Falken · Post by **Falken** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:48 pm

If you are looking at how to program at a near hardware level (assembler), maybe a model machine might be best suited. The systems of my youth are no longer maintained but something along the lines of "Little Man Computer" exists which was apparently the equivalent in the english speaking world:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_man_computer

Otherwise I think kelli217 above had some good pointers.

TomXP411 · Post by **TomXP411** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:10 pm

I’m one of my early programming classes, we used a programming language called KAREL. It was specifically designed to be simple to use and was targeted at learning to program, rather than writing useful code.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_(programming_language)

SlithyMatt · Post by **SlithyMatt** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:31 pm

19 minutes ago, TomXP411 said:

I’m one of my early programming classes, we used a programming language called KAREL. It was specifically designed to be simple to use and was targeted at learning to program, rather than writing useful code.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_(programming_language)

I never heard of Karel before clicking on that link, and it looks a lot like Logo, which was my initial introduction to programming many, many years ago on the Apple II. We started out doing very similar turtle commands to turn and move forward and backward, and put the pen up and down to draw pictures.

Dani · Post by **Dani** » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:35 pm

2 hours ago, paulscottrobson said:

When you say "how they work", can you program already, say in Java or C#, but want to get down to the nitty gritty of the internals ? or that you are starting programming from scratch ?

If so, I would suggest either the Ben Eater series on the 6502 or possibly a PIC16F84 based kit - like say Velleman K8048. Both are programmed in Assembler which is (almost) as low as you can go - one is a microprocessor, the other a microcontroller, but they operate at the same very basic levels and will give you an idea what's going on 'under the hood'.

For starting programming, on retro machines you might want to have a look at the Vic20 user guide - you can use an emulator, that costs nothing. It's not that the Vic is a particularly powerful machine, more that it has a very beginner friendly "try these" manual.

I've done a bit of programming on a very basic level before. I mostly meant the nitty gritty of the internals. It seems like all of you are super knowledgeable about pokes and peeks with specific memory addresses or telling the chips to do very specific things and I feel like I missed that class in school lol. I can understand the concept of loops, functions, variables, and such with programming, but figuring out how to tell that to the chips directly and remember it all with hex or pokes makes my brain explode.