Frustrations With These Forums

[Gerry]

It has become such a hassle to access these forums. I can't find anything without poking around endlessly hoping to run across what I'm looking for. As an example, I've just found out that firmware version 48 has been released. My CX16 board was delivered to me with R47. What I've run across is a lot of warnings about following the update instructions EXACTLY or else risking bricking the computer. But I can't find instructions or R48 BIN files to perform this update, especially since I am a novice. It also means I will have to update the emulators and what is the process to do that without destroying the present installations (both Mac and PC versions) that took me MONTHS of studying to finally figure out how to set them up.

I'm not a Commodore 64 user but come from the Apple II world. I suggest that you add a forum that covers and answers novice's issues and questions. Mixing the advanced and novice questions and instructions together has become a mess that's getting worse. I've spent a lot of money to build up a CX16 computer but I'm having a devil of a time trying to learn about it.

Please do something to help us novices understand, update and use this computer. I find it fun until I have to wade through this forum trying to figure something out.

Thank you,
Gerry

[DragWx]

I'm planning to stay on R47 until things are sorted out, because R48 seems a little rushed, or otherwise, not as much care was put into it as the previous releases.

Edit: By that I mean, the R48 release doesn't have the same level of guides and information for it as R47 did. I do see now that the SMC repository contains info on what to do if your SMC has the bad bootloader, but that was only added yesterday.

The other thing is, where is that VERA PSG update? I don't see it in the VERA repository; were the R48 release notes wrong when it said v47.0.2 contains it?

[tim1724]

There really needs to be a single straightforward page on the main X16 site that just provides comprehensive instructions on how to update, with a single download containing all needed files (and an another copy of the instructions).

There should be no need for anyone to dig through the forum or track down a GitHub repository just to update their firmware. It was one thing during the development period but after selling so many production units it’s just inexcusable.

[JimmyDansbo]

Please keep in mind that both this site, documentation and system development is mostly community driven.

I can only agree that it would be great if there was a single point of reference for updates and documentation.
If anyone is able to help, there is plenty of work to do.
Anyone is welcome to open issues or, better yet, pull requests on the various github repositories.
https://github.com/X16Community/x16-rom
https://github.com/X16Community/x16-docs
https://github.com/X16Community/x16-emulator
https://github.com/X16Community/x16-smc
https://github.com/orgs/X16Community/repositories

Everyone is also more than welcome to join the, very active, discord https://discord.gg/WQv9eTUk where you can ask for help or offer any help you feel you can.

[Stefan]

I think that everybody agrees upon the need for more and better documentation.

Improvements have been made, and some more are being discussed on the Discord channel. The number of persons doing this in their spare time is low. If you want to give something back to the community, taking part in documenting the system is a great opportunity.

Automation may be a key to improving quality and consistency of the update resources. The x16-rom and x16-smc project already use Github actions for this purpose. But we could probably do more with automation to ensure that update resources and instructions are made available to users.

We also need to update or replace the system upgrade tool. It's starting to fall behind, especially when it comes to updating the SMC firmware. And Sven, who made this tool, hasn't been active in the community lately.

[voidstar]

Gerry, thanks for taking the time to voice the frustration. It's a fair criticism - not just in terms of the vague coverage of firmware update process, but on asking folks to pay a premium price for a product and (seemingly) not getting much traditional product support (to include a comprehensive manual which, for many, makes a more complete "retro experience").

Regarding the mixture of "advanced" and "beginner" discussions, it's an inevitable clash (as it's subjective on what's advanced). In the 80's, we had monthly magazines to help keep up with the latest - and it's unfortunate that the chaotic progress of "web technologies" has seemingly made replicating that mold quite a challenge. That said, I noticed in the TRS-80 community there is a kind of periodic publication.

For me, I think in January it was a bit of a distraction right at launch time to bring up the 816 again. It has its merits, but the fairly constant feedback then was "when is the spiral bound manual going to be available?" I would have also put a 1-year "design freeze" (including ROM updates), as that emulates the 1980s experience: when a product set sail out into the world, it was generally "stuck" that way for quite a while. But I very much understand why the 816 was discussed once more, and the transparent nature of the development is a net positive (mingled in with moments of chaos).


I'll let others answer about the ROM updates. My experience is you can update the VERA and System ROM, and not worry about the SMC update (the individual updaters are on the original SD in EXPLORE\SYSTEM). But as with any firmware updates: don't bother unless there is some aspect, feature, or software you want to use that is dependent on that update.
For reference, demo walk through of the System ROM updates:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FArnhwrJd6Y



A while ago I started "cataloging" some of my X16 projects, and a lot of it I did try to have oriented towards more beginner-level users (as I'm still learning much about the system myself). That info is here:
https://voidstar.blog/best-of-voidstar-x16-content/


While some compare the X16 to a CBM system, that doesn't mean a whole lot to many folks who never experienced the early CBM or Apple days. I also realize that to understand BASLOAD, one still needs to first understand the "basics of BASIC" to fully appreciate what convenience BASLOAD is providing. So some more "Day 1 Usage Videos" might be warranted. For example, explaining why the system doesn't natively read BASIC as text files.

[Edmond D]

It has become such a hassle to access these forums.

<snip><snip>

Please do something to help us novices understand, update and use this computer. I find it fun until I have to wade through this forum trying to figure something out.

Thank you,
Gerry

The forum has been running for a long time and there is a huge range of content from trivial to ultra-important. It kind of reflects the internet - a wide range of info from a wide range of people with a wide range of quality.

That being said, yes the updating information of the X16 (R48) seems to be lacking. Others have commented and clarified some of the info you need and offered help, which is the value of the forum - community.

Your post has generated some discussion and action, so thanks for that contribution. Hopefully by now you've been able to get your system back online. If not there are people here willing to help you further.

[Gerry]

To voidstar, Edmond D and everyone else who has responded to my post, thank you for your responses. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who's frustrated with the Forums. I know this issue will be resolved as everyone contributes to fix this issue. I'm suggesting that a new CX16 forum is opened specifically focused on novices. Newbys can post their questions (or a vague issue that they are confused about) and the experts can respond with explanations and direct where to find more detailed information so we can learn and develop the skills and experience to find our own answers. The experts have more than plenty to do and they are volunteering their time too.

In my job, we have dozens of Win PCs performing all kinds of automatic workflows to keep our station moving. A recent issue with IT has been how all these PC's have NOT been updated with the latest patches so there is vulnerabilities that need to be addressed. I've always updated to the latest version of firmware as it fixes bugs and usually adds capabilities. If I run later, updated applications with older firmware and it crashes, is that the fault of the application, the firmware or did I do something wrong? So, to keeps us all on an even playing field I'd prefer to keep the firmware updated.

Got to go, thank you for your help,
Gerry

[cosmicr]

I'm also learning a lot of new things just from this thread haha.

In addition, I reckon there should be an "official" or at least defacto official repository of games and applications. Something like Lemon64 for CX16 or even something like itch.io or mobygames etc would be great. All it needs is a short description, some metadata and a download link (if the game is free). It could be wiki-style and let creators upload their games. The only place I know to find games and apps is here on the forum.

[TomXP411]

I'm also learning a lot of new things just from this thread haha.

In addition, I reckon there should be an "official" or at least defacto official repository of games and applications. Something like Lemon64 for CX16 or even something like itch.io or mobygames etc would be great. All it needs is a short description, some metadata and a download link (if the game is free). It could be wiki-style and let creators upload their games. The only place I know to find games and apps is here on the forum.

All we need is for someone to step up and build it. A few people have volunteered, although we haven't seen any real code, yet.

All I ask is that whatever solution someone comes up with interfaces with phpBB for authentication, so we don't need yet another login system. It's fine if it uses its own database, it should be able to use the phpBB cookies and database well enough to track users and verify permissions, ownership of files, etc.

Or...if someone wants to pony up to the money to switch us back to a hosted solution or a commercial forum and files site, we could do that, too.

I'd actually be willing to migrate to a more modern forum/CMS system, if someone can point me to one that has a files site similar to what you describe, assuming the software is accessible enough for us to actually do the conversion and import our phpBB data.