Alternative everyday computer/games system.

Fenner Machine · Post by **Fenner Machine** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:31 pm

This is a question that I’ve been pondering for ages. A “What if?”.

What would be your acceptable minimum specs for an alternative everyday computer/games system? Maybe not a complete replacement, but a useful secondary system.

In comparison to a few years ago modern computers:

Seemingly do almost anything.

Simultaneously more efficient, yet can demand much more power!

Near photo realistic graphics, but requiring £1000+ graphics cards to do it.

What would an alternative be like?

Something that maybe mixes the simplicity of older computers with the efficiencies of newer tech and manufacturing processes.

Not an emulation system, but something designed as a new ecosystem.

Keeping things simple, I think these specs would be enough for me:

32 bit CPU, maybe dual core, with a good FPU (probably an ARM CPU)

1GB RAM

Sound chip capable of MIDI, FM synthesis and PCM (CD quality)

Dedicated audio RAM (1MB) for FM and MIDI

2D/3D graphics chip or chips

Dedicated VRAM, 1GB

A dedicated 2D graphics accelerator; tiles, sprites, scaling, rotation…

100’s of tiles and sprites with effects applied

A dedicated 3D graphics chip with some fixed function features

Resolution: 1920x1080, 1280x720 or 1360x768, 640x480, 320x240 natively

Colour: 32, 24, 16 & 8 bit natively, palettes/colour look up tables

Inputs/outputs – VGA, HDMI, USB, stereo headphone jacks...

If using an ARM CPU there is some software already available that could be useful.

Option to boot to a version of BASIC designed to take advantage of this systems capabilities.

How much would something like this cost if mass produced? Would it be viable? (A "What if?" question).

What would your alternative system be like, or do you already have a decent secondary system like ARM, Amiga or other?

JimmyDansbo · Post by **JimmyDansbo** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:50 pm

Raspberry Pi 400 - I am sure I could easily live with that as my desktop system.

Scott Robison · Post by **Scott Robison** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:09 pm

Considering how much I was able to get done with a 386 with VGA, including 320x200 256 color graphics, I could return to that if needed.

For an imaginary machine that doesn't currently exist, I would like something like that but that built around a 32 bit descendant of the 6502. Not the 65832 that was proposed once upon a time, necessarily, but something that had a real 32 bit bus, not just 32 bit internal registers. In many ways ARM is that 32 bit (or 64 bit) descendant, even though I am not fluent in ARM assembly language.

martinot · Post by **martinot** » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:54 pm

On 12/28/2021 at 10:31 PM, Fenner Machine said:

This is a question that I’ve been pondering for ages. A “What if?”.

What would be your acceptable minimum specs for an alternative everyday computer/games system? Maybe not a complete replacement, but a useful secondary system.

In comparison to a few years ago modern computers:

Seemingly do almost anything.

Simultaneously more efficient, yet can demand much more power!

Near photo realistic graphics, but requiring £1000+ graphics cards to do it.

What would an alternative be like?

Something that maybe mixes the simplicity of older computers with the efficiencies of newer tech and manufacturing processes.

Not an emulation system, but something designed as a new ecosystem.

Keeping things simple, I think these specs would be enough for me:

32 bit CPU, maybe dual core, with a good FPU (probably an ARM CPU)

1GB RAM

Sound chip capable of MIDI, FM synthesis and PCM (CD quality)

Dedicated audio RAM (1MB) for FM and MIDI

2D/3D graphics chip or chips

Dedicated VRAM, 1GB

A dedicated 2D graphics accelerator; tiles, sprites, scaling, rotation…

100’s of tiles and sprites with effects applied

A dedicated 3D graphics chip with some fixed function features

Resolution: 1920x1080, 1280x720 or 1360x768, 640x480, 320x240 natively

Colour: 32, 24, 16 & 8 bit natively, palettes/colour look up tables

Inputs/outputs – VGA, HDMI, USB, stereo headphone jacks...

If using an ARM CPU there is some software already available that could be useful.

Option to boot to a version of BASIC designed to take advantage of this systems capabilities.

How much would something like this cost if mass produced? Would it be viable? (A "What if?" question).

What would your alternative system be like, or do you already have a decent secondary system like ARM, Amiga or other?

I think it is fantastic how much computer you can get today for so little money. Like you say it is something that even we that grew up with computers in the 80's probably never could image or dream of.

Last year I was awaiting my new MacBook Air M1, and needed an alternare cheap computer quickly before it could be delivered.

I got a budget machine from HP instead. I was only a two core Celeron, but with a better IPS 14" 1080p anti glare display (fantastic quality for the price and low budget). It also came with an Office 365 license free for a year.

In total a fantastic deal for just around €200. Amazing!

Today I keep it in my trunk of my Tesla as an alternate computer, and if I need to use a computer while waiting for charging (not very often) or for my family (most common), I just fetch my cheap HP portable and my car desk tray. Great as a spare computer and machine!

HP Notebook - 14s-dq0003no Product Specifications | HP® Customer Support

Product number	1E6Z4EA
Product name	HP Notebook - 14s-dq0003no
Microprocessor	Intel® Celeron® N4000 (1.1 GHz base frequency, up to 2.6 GHz burst frequency, 4 MB L2 cache, 2 cores)
Chipset	Intel® Integrated SoC
Memory, standard	4 GB DDR4-2400 SDRAM (1 x 4 GB)
Video graphics	Intel® UHD Graphics 600
Hard drive	64 GB eMMC
Optical drive	Optical drive not included
Display	35.6 cm (14") diagonal FHD IPS anti-glare micro-edge WLED-backlit, 250 nits, 45% NTSC (1920 x 1080)
Wireless connectivity	Realtek RTL8821CE 802.11b/g/n/ac (1x1) and Bluetooth® 4.2 Combo
Expansion slots	1 multi-format SD media card reader
External ports	1 USB 3.1 Gen 1 Type-C™ (Data Transfer Only, 5 Gb/s signaling rate); 2 USB 3.1 Gen 1 Type-A (Data Transfer Only); 1 AC smart pin; 1 HDMI 1.4b; 1 headphone/microphone combo
Minimum dimensions (W x D x H)	32.4 x 22.5 x 17.99 cm
Weight	1.46 kg
Power supply type	45 W Smart AC power adapter
Battery type	3-cell, 41 Wh Li-ion
Webcam	HP TrueVision HD Camera with integrated dual array digital microphone
Audio features	Dual speakers

Strider · Post by **Strider** » Wed Dec 29, 2021 3:47 am

Like @JimmyDansbo, for me, it already exists, and it's the Raspberry Pi. The Pi4 is a more than capable alternative for me. I use an 8GB model, running off SSD over USB3, and it's impressively fast. I use it for most of my Arduino and circuit design, and do a bit of gaming on it. I use the 3B+ for classic console emulation, and between the two that's good enough for my alternative.

That being said, I am VERY tempted to grab a Atomic Pi, an x86 single board, so you have more OS, software options, and more horsepower to play with. It's powered by an Intel Atom x5-Z8350 quad core @ 1.44GHz with a 480MHz IGPU. It's limited to 2GB DDR3L-1600 RAM, but for my needs, that's more than enough. I want to use it for more demanding emulation, or see if I can get it running something like Win 95 OSR2.5, just for kicks. The big drawback is drivers for older operating systems, but I may still give it a go and see what I can get to run on it.

Tatwi · Post by **Tatwi** » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:43 pm

I've thought about this myself a number of times and it's really difficult, if not impossible, to answer objectively. Even if we're talking about a totally imaginary universe, we're still colored by reality that we can get an enormous amount of computing power in the real world for very little money. With that in mind, I would rather think of it as what type of software environment and end user experience would I be happy with, because then the question of hardware would be answered simply by, "whatever it takes to accomplish that smoothly".

Ideally, I think it would be great if everything ran from (attached to, physically and/or wirelessly) to a smartphone no larger than my old Samsung Galaxy S6. Except it would use the Window Phone 7 UI, because of all the mobile UIs, WP7 was the most simple, useful, elegant, and enjoyable. When attached to a keyboard, mouse, and external screen, it would have all desktop publishing, CAD, and programming functionality one would expect, except it would all be one coherent system rather than a mishmash of UI/UX paradigms (Blender/GIMP vs. Adobe vs. Corel etc.). Everything would work the same in phone, desktop, and laptop modes. Modern Unreal Engine level 3D graphics would be possible, but then so would everything 3D and 2D below that level of complexity and detail.

The best part would be that the system would consist of...

The 5" screen smartphone.

A "home cloud" storage brick that holds data for multiple users and can be linked to an online storage account.

Whatever human interface devices you preferred to use, from huge displays to the laptop form factor.

A coherent user interface throughout the entire software package, including a software development suit that has common functionality for several languages, from C# down to ASM, such that one can use the system to create all possible software that would run on the system.

In today's real world, everyone except high-end gamers and scientists who need real super computers would be content with octo-core bigLITTLE ARM based SOCs computers. Add a super GPU dock and you'd have the gamers too...

xanthrou · Post by **xanthrou** » Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:25 pm

On 12/28/2021 at 11:31 PM, Fenner Machine said:

This is a question that I’ve been pondering for ages. A “What if?”.

What would be your acceptable minimum specs for an alternative everyday computer/games system? Maybe not a complete replacement, but a useful secondary system.

In comparison to a few years ago modern computers:

Seemingly do almost anything.

Simultaneously more efficient, yet can demand much more power!

Near photo realistic graphics, but requiring £1000+ graphics cards to do it.

What would an alternative be like?

Something that maybe mixes the simplicity of older computers with the efficiencies of newer tech and manufacturing processes.

Not an emulation system, but something designed as a new ecosystem.

Keeping things simple, I think these specs would be enough for me:

32 bit CPU, maybe dual core, with a good FPU (probably an ARM CPU)

1GB RAM

Sound chip capable of MIDI, FM synthesis and PCM (CD quality)

Dedicated audio RAM (1MB) for FM and MIDI

2D/3D graphics chip or chips

Dedicated VRAM, 1GB

A dedicated 2D graphics accelerator; tiles, sprites, scaling, rotation…

100’s of tiles and sprites with effects applied

A dedicated 3D graphics chip with some fixed function features

Resolution: 1920x1080, 1280x720 or 1360x768, 640x480, 320x240 natively

Colour: 32, 24, 16 & 8 bit natively, palettes/colour look up tables

Inputs/outputs – VGA, HDMI, USB, stereo headphone jacks...

If using an ARM CPU there is some software already available that could be useful.

Option to boot to a version of BASIC designed to take advantage of this systems capabilities.

How much would something like this cost if mass produced? Would it be viable? (A "What if?" question).

What would your alternative system be like, or do you already have a decent secondary system like ARM, Amiga or other?

Mine would be similar, except that it would have a modern Intel Pentium processor instead (with an ARM and/or RISC-V coprocessor), plus an additional PSG capabilities for sound.

Ffin72 · Post by **Ffin72** » Thu Dec 30, 2021 3:49 pm

On 12/28/2021 at 9:31 PM, Fenner Machine said:

What would be your acceptable minimum specs for an alternative everyday computer/games system? Maybe not a complete replacement, but a useful secondary system.

An Amiga 1200 with ethernet, VGA graphics, '030 CPU and 16MB of RAM. Modest, but very usable for productivity and gaming/emulation ?! These days, I'd opt for the Vampire V4SA!

martinot · Post by **martinot** » Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:20 pm

On 12/30/2021 at 4:49 PM, Ffin72 said:

An Amiga 1200 with ethernet, VGA graphics, '030 CPU and 16MB of RAM. Modest, but very usable for productivity and gaming/emulation ?! These days, I'd opt for the Vampire V4SA!

Would that work practically? I mean would it not be too underpowered to browse the modern webb in any meaningful way?

Personally I think a computer with a Geekbench 5 score of between 500-1000 would be an absolute minimum for any practical purpose.

Ffin72 · Post by **Ffin72** » Fri Dec 31, 2021 5:53 pm

On 12/31/2021 at 5:20 PM, martinot said:

Would that work practically? I mean would it not be too underpowered to browse the modern webb in any meaningful way?

Personally I think a computer with a Geekbench 5 score of between 500-1000 would be an absolute minimum for any practical purpose.

Facebook and YouTube would be out of the question, but there are plenty of sites that work fine with Amiga browsers, such as Aminet and English Amiga Board. I can live with that.