Commander X16 vs. Mega 65

[Yazwho]

The floppy constrains the coders to a set size and read rate, which imho is a good thing as it adds to the challenge.

The X16's virtually unlimited and near instant read size of SD Cards does let you do things that aren't quite of the time.

 

[Scott Robison]

On 10/5/2021 at 12:07 AM, Ju+Te said:

This would be an anti-feature for me. Even my old 8-bit machine has an external keyboard - it is much more ergonomic. I hate using notebook keyboards/mousepad for the very same reason. IMHO, for a new 8-bit system, it is useful to combine the advantages of the 8-bit world (direct hardware) with more modern parts and ideas (hence I prefer the x16 to have a USB keyboard connector). Maybe for some customers the bad usability also is a feature of the nostalgia, but I like to avoid this.

I assume you mean an external keyboard *can* be more ergonomic. I've seen many non-ergonomic external keyboards.

I'll all about getting a good quality keyboard. I bought two of the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard (https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/) so I could have one for work and one for home. But I don't really think the keyboard on the MEGA65 looks *that* bad from a purely functional perspective. It is definitely better than most laptop / notebook keyboards.

[Scott Robison]

On 10/5/2021 at 2:19 AM, Yazwho said:

The floppy constrains the coders to a set size and read rate, which imho is a good thing as it adds to the challenge.



The X16's virtually unlimited and near instant read size of SD Cards does let you do things that aren't quite of the time.

Personally I think there is plenty of challenge getting code to work well in the constrained memory environment. I don't need slow media to make that a challenge. ?

[Ju+Te]

On 10/5/2021 at 6:18 PM, Scott Robison said:

I assume you mean an external keyboard *can* be more ergonomic. I've seen many non-ergonomic external keyboards.



I'll all about getting a good quality keyboard. I bought two of the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard (https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/) so I could have one for work and one for home. But I don't really think the keyboard on the MEGA65 looks *that* bad from a purely functional perspective. It is definitely better than most laptop / notebook keyboards.

An external keyboard (with a state-of-the-art connector) allows to change it, it allows to position it where it's best for you. As a software developer a decent keyboard is one of my mostly used tool. Hence I'm using good ones for a longer time. Haven't thought of bad keyboards because I would not buy bad ones.

Having a floppy sounds like a strange thing to me, but for some it might contribute to the retro feeling. And finally, retro computers are nearly only for the feelings of the "good old times", for the feeling of youth, like an affordable time machine.

[Scott Robison]

On 10/5/2021 at 11:13 AM, Ju+Te said:

An external keyboard (with a state-of-the-art connector) allows to change it, it allows to position it where it's best for you. As a software developer a decent keyboard is one of my mostly used tool. Hence I'm using good ones for a longer time. Haven't thought of bad keyboards because I would not buy bad ones.



Having a floppy sounds like a strange thing to me, but for some it might contribute to the retro feeling. And finally, retro computers are nearly only for the feelings of the "good old times", for the feeling of youth, like an affordable time machine.

My first thought was "when a computer comes with an external keyboard, it is more ergonomic" and thus my query. I agree. As I said, I like having a good keyboard. Still, this keyboard on the MEGA65 seems better than most "integrated" keyboards. It looks better than the Surface Pro keyboard I'm using as I type this! ?

[Tatwi]

On 10/4/2021 at 12:52 PM, Scott Robison said:

The case and keyboard I used for comparison is from https://myretrocomputer.com/.

135£ + 45£ shipping = $308 CAD, before duty and 13% tax (on the value in CAD, which is, of course, a lager number than 13% of the value in GBP, because screw me for being born here I guess). For a plastic box with a keyboard. That said, I appreciate the comparison, because in the UK it works out quite well, spiritually and numerically! ?

For Commander X16 compatible comparison though, I could buy this steel and tempered glass ATX case for $120 CAD and this "tenkeyless" keyboard with an aluminum plate and Cherry MX switches for $80 CAD, with free shipping. Both are total overkill and both offer better build quality than either retro case. Furthermore, there are plenty of cheaper options for both cases and mechanical keyboards that have comparable build quality.

But... what ya just can't get for a reasonable price in North America is a frick'n keyboard chassis with room to install a computer underneath! Well, unless you count the $95 Raspberry Pi 400, which I don't, because that keyboard is balls awful and the case only fits the Pi 400.

Again the fully realized X16 wins, because it's compatible with any ATX case and there's an enormous variety of keyboards one could use, from a new Unicomp Model M ($104 USD) to a $1 Salvation Army special. While that case + keyboard combo isn't the same look and feel as the computer-inside-the-keyboard paradigm, there is still plenty of nostalgia to be had from the case + keyboard design (especially if one is willing to modify an actual retro case or to create their own custom case).

More importantly though, this isn't 1985. Back then the capabilities offered by these machines were state of the art, but today no one needs these computers for anything. In other words, they're both toys. Expensive toys. Now, a low price tag can make any nick knack intriguing to the general public, but a high price tag? Yeah, that will give anyone pause. Will I use this? Why do I need this? Do I want this instead of that other thing I was looking at earlier? I can't help but feel that the X16's lower cost of entry, combined with its greater compatibility and expansion capability, make it a more enticing product to a wider audience.

At $200 USD, an X16 board would allow a person to jump in and start using the device with the peripherals they already own. That's roughly 1/4 the cost of the Mega65. This is a worthy consideration for anyone but the most extreme fans of this subject matter.

[Scott Robison]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:17 PM, Tatwi said:

135£ + 45£ shipping = $308 CAD, before duty and 13% tax (on the value in CAD, which is, of course, a lager number than 13% of the value in GBP, because screw me for being born here I guess). For a plastic box with a keyboard. That said, I appreciate the comparison, because in the UK it works out quite well, spiritually and numerically! ?



For Commander X16 compatible comparison though, I could buy this steel and tempered glass ATX case for $120 CAD and this "tenkeyless" keyboard with an aluminum plate and Cherry MX switches for $80 CAD, with free shipping. Both are total overkill and both offer better build quality than either retro case. Furthermore, there are plenty of cheaper options for both cases and mechanical keyboards that have comparable build quality.

Right, my comparison was in no way "MEGA65 vs Commander X16". It was "MEGA65 vs Nexys A7 / Nexys 4 DDR + all the stuff necessary to bring it up to the level of the MEGA65 offering". I don't see any way to make an "apples to apples" comparison between MEGA65 & the X16. I love them both, or at least I will someday when I actually have both in hand. Just like I love my RV and my electric commuter car. They are both great at what they do, and I expect MEGA65 & X16 will serve great niches as well, even though neither is likely to replace Intel Windows / BSD / Linux based systems.

[Scott Robison]

On 10/7/2021 at 10:51 PM, Scott Robison said:

Right, my comparison was in no way "MEGA65 vs Commander X16". It was "MEGA65 vs Nexys A7 / Nexys 4 DDR + all the stuff necessary to bring it up to the level of the MEGA65 offering". I don't see any way to make an "apples to apples" comparison between MEGA65 & the X16. I love them both, or at least I will someday when I actually have both in hand. Just like I love my RV and my electric commuter car. They are both great at what they do, and I expect MEGA65 & X16 will serve great niches as well, even though neither is likely to replace Intel Windows / BSD / Linux based systems.

And I already have a Nexys 4 DDR. For me the value proposition of the MEGA65 is fueling my interest in learning more about FPGA, and for that the MEGA65 should serve a valuable purpose to me. The fact I can use it as a C=65/MEGA65/C=64 out of the box is great as well. Also that I can connect it to HDMI with all the compatible devices I already have.

[Tatwi]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:51 AM, Scott Robison said:

Right, my comparison was in no way "MEGA65 vs Commander X16". It was "MEGA65 vs Nexys A7 / Nexys 4 DDR + all the stuff necessary to bring it up to the level of the MEGA65 offering". I don't see any way to make an "apples to apples" comparison between MEGA65 & the X16. I love them both, or at least I will someday when I actually have both in hand. Just like I love my RV and my electric commuter car. They are both great at what they do, and I expect MEGA65 & X16 will serve great niches as well, even though neither is likely to replace Intel Windows / BSD / Linux based systems.

I was trying to loop the discussion back around to the intended topic of the thread. However, for a new user I do think something similar can be said about spending less on a minimal FPGA dev kit and using it with stuff one already owns rather than getting the Mega65 for FPGA dev. If you're absolutely sure that you want to focus on the C64/65 ecosystem, then a Mega65 would be convenient and probably worth the investment. However, if you're just going to turn into an arcade/console machine after a few months of toying with it, then one of the less expensive FPGA setups would make more sense.

This, of course, does not apply to you personally, as you already have and know what you want.

[Scott Robison]

On 10/8/2021 at 12:06 AM, Tatwi said:

I was trying to loop the discussion back around to the intended topic of the thread. However, for a new user I do think something similar can be said about spending less on a minimal FPGA dev kit and using it with stuff one already owns rather than getting the Mega65 for FPGA dev. If you're absolutely sure that you want to focus on the C64/65 ecosystem, then a Mega65 would be convenient and probably worth the investment. However, if you're just going to turn into an arcade/console machine after a few months of toying with it, then one of the less expensive FPGA setups would make more sense.



This, of course, does not apply to you personally, as you already have and know what you want.

I want all the toys. Commander X16. MEGA65. MiSTer. Tesla. List some more, I probably want them. ?