Commander X16 vs. Mega 65

Tatwi · Post by **Tatwi** » Fri Oct 01, 2021 3:01 am

On 9/30/2021 at 10:14 PM, Scott Robison said:

I intend to use it as a better FPGA development platform than the Nexys 4 DDR I already have. But I cannot fault you for your logic and reasoning.

I think it's worth it to buy an FPGA development platform if you're into FPGA development. Endless amounts of entertainment there that you can't otherwise experience.

I priced out a minimal mister setup (excluding input and screen devices) and it would be roughly $350 CAD ($235 DE10-Nano), which is not bad for something that can be every 8bit and 16bit computer and console, physical attributes aside. Though a $48 Raspberry Pi or an already paid for PC would offer almost the same experience. Almost...

To the topic at hand,

A fully realized Commander X16 is far and away a better device than the Mega65, because of its physical expansion capability and its otherwise equally functional/retro keyboard/case design. They are different form factors and devices that seem to serve different audiences (Mega65 being more software oriented), but if a person had to pick between on these hobby computers, I think they would get more out the Commander X16. That is, unless they also wanted an FPGA game console, in which case the Mega65 would be more useful for them. Really, they seem to serve different purposes when looking beyond their chassis. Not really an apples to apples comparison.

paulscottrobson · Post by **paulscottrobson** » Fri Oct 01, 2021 6:04 am

On 9/30/2021 at 11:51 PM, Scott Robison said:

The primary FPGA is a larger version of what is on the Nexys A7 / Nexys 4 DDR / Nexys 4 that they used for development. Apparently the keyboard has a CPLD that is being referred to as an FPGA because it is similarly reprogrammable. There is also a third FPGA that I think is part of the hardware management. So the workhorse is the primary one and the others provide support services to it much as other chips provide support to a CPU.

I'm not 100% up to speed on everything about MEGA65. What I listed above are just my rationalization as to why I'm getting it. Having a system with an integrated keyboard and more connectivity to the outside world is appealing for what I would like to do with it above and beyond its MEGA65 personality.

That makes sense. I don't think it's a bad deal ; it's not the chips or the board that are expensive so much as the case, the disk drive (never understood this one !), the specialist keyboard. You could probably produce the same thing as a bare board PS/2 SDCard model for half that or even less.

It's just a lot of money for me personally on something I mightn't use a great deal.

Each to their own though.

Cyber · Post by **Cyber** » Mon Oct 04, 2021 3:57 am

On 10/1/2021 at 9:04 AM, paulscottrobson said:

the case, the disk drive (never understood this one !)

I think they wanted Mega 65 to look like unreleased Commodore 65 as much as possible. This explains me everything.

Scott Robison · Post by **Scott Robison** » Mon Oct 04, 2021 6:53 am

On 10/3/2021 at 9:57 PM, Cyber said:

I think they wanted Mega 65 to look like unreleased Commodore 65 as much as possible. This explains me everything.

Indeed. Keep all the retro about it, but add on the new stuff too. It's really no wonder it took so long to get it done with all volunteer effort (except for the manufacturing which they have outsourced).

paulscottrobson · Post by **paulscottrobson** » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:25 am

On 10/4/2021 at 4:57 AM, Cyber said:

I think they wanted Mega 65 to look like unreleased Commodore 65 as much as possible. This explains me everything.

It's fine. You can have the fancy version with the keyboard and disk drive , or the functionally equivalent version by putting a Nexys A7 in a box which would cost a couple of hundred quid. Each to their own.

Scott Robison · Post by **Scott Robison** » Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:52 pm

I completely understand where @paulscottrobson is coming from. MEGA65 isn't for everyone, and I get that. For me personally, I can get much of the MEGA65 experience by just installing an available bitstream on my Nexys 4 DDR. But it doesn't give me the identical experience, so I tried to come up with something closer to an apples to apples comparison (though really it is more like green apples to red apples ... they still aren't the same).

I dug around searching for information trying to figure out what it would cost to make an "equivalent" MEGA65 out of parts only. No cost of labor, integration, testing is included in this.

The base price is the biggest difference. $265.00 for a Nexys A7 vs $773.33 for the complete MEGA65. But it doesn't come with case, keyboard, or a number of parts. Digital video would require an extra PMOD to add the capability to the Nexys A7. That doesn't seem to include digital audio, and I can't find a PMOD that supports that directly, or perhaps the digital video PMOD would handle it as well (that point isn't clear, but it isn't mentioned which leads me to believe it isn't).

The primary FPGA is twice the size, and there are two other FPGA-type devices in the system. Prices are for quantity one since I'd be doing it for myself.

Nexys A7 doesn't include an IEC or expansion port, and the only way I can think of to get those would be to buy a dead C=64 and scavenge them. I picked $50 as an arbitrary number, given what used dead C=64 units seem to be going for online. It could be a lot cheaper. Maybe even free if you find someone willing to give one away.

The case and keyboard I used for comparison is from https://myretrocomputer.com/.

Nexys A7 only has one SDHC slot, so a little more to add an extra. No RTC either, so a little bit extra. And $10 for a used 3.5" drive on ebay.

Using my part price estimates, there is only a $43 diff. I'd easily use that up in time spent trying to get all the pieces to fit together given my level of experience and the fact that the other team has been working on this for 5+ years.

Now ... not all of that is necessary. If one just wants to run a MEGA65 personality, they certainly can save a lot of money. And the Nexys A7 likely has much more RAM available.

For me, I'm paying in part for the integration of all the pieces and for the artistic expression of those pieces. I may regret it at some point. Hopefully that point doesn't come until long after I've received it and had hours of enjoyment out of it.

Scott Robison · Post by **Scott Robison** » Mon Oct 04, 2021 4:55 pm

Oh, and I forgot to include C=64 game ports. I could get the parts from the dead C=64. Even with all the extra PMODs, I don't think there is enough IO exposed to connect everything extra, but even if there is, it will still require a ton of effort on my part. Also, the price on the Artix A7 200T is the difference between a 200T and a 100T unit, just to try to create parity between the two offerings.

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:06 pm

On 10/3/2021 at 11:57 PM, Cyber said:

I think they wanted Mega 65 to look like unreleased Commodore 65 as much as possible. This explains me everything.

The built in drive is part of why, if I was in the market for a $500ish toy, I would definitely consider the Mega65. The 3.5" drive is a much better capacity for Forth programming than the old 1541 was ... plenty of room for a compiler, several bespoke SAVESYSTEMs, and a good sized set of blocks (however implemented).

But I'm not ... and since I don't play the lottery, I can't even hope for a big lottery win to bring it into reach.

Ju+Te · Post by **Ju+Te** » Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:07 am

On 10/4/2021 at 5:57 AM, Cyber said:

I think they wanted Mega 65 to look like unreleased Commodore 65 as much as possible. This explains me everything.

This would be an anti-feature for me. Even my old 8-bit machine has an external keyboard - it is much more ergonomic. I hate using notebook keyboards/mousepad for the very same reason. IMHO, for a new 8-bit system, it is useful to combine the advantages of the 8-bit world (direct hardware) with more modern parts and ideas (hence I prefer the x16 to have a USB keyboard connector). Maybe for some customers the bad usability also is a feature of the nostalgia, but I like to avoid this.

Cyber · Post by **Cyber** » Tue Oct 05, 2021 6:18 am

On 10/5/2021 at 9:07 AM, Ju+Te said:

Maybe for some customers the bad usability also is a feature of the nostalgia, but I like to avoid this.

It is true. But only occasionally when you are in the mood for it. Maybe for some people this happens more often, for others less. Depends of one's will and available time. If you have time, and don't rush anywhere, it's a pleasent feeling to insert floppy, listen to drive's motor, wait for it to load, etc. But yeah, overall it gets to waiting in frustration. Especially when you don't have much free time, then you want some quicker alternative.