Change of product direction, good and bad news!

[paulscottrobson]

9 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

Sorry, that was a bit ambiguous. Those numbers weren't prices (hence no "$"), they were quantity ranges ... a complete set (which is substantially more fulfillment work), maybe a minimum 250 for the tier (to get a price break on the power supply, hdmi cable), maximum 500. A bare board tier without a cap on the tier, because if it is ordered from the board maker with each one in it's anti static shipping bag, the fulfillment is easier.

I think 250 for the X8 is a bit pessimistic, thought it matters less because it's the easiest to physically implement I think. If it's being sold at £50-£100 I think many people would buy it even if they bought an X16 as well. It's almost a beer money purchase.

[David Morton]

David needs to decide what will he be happy with.  How close is it to his goal building his dream computer.  From what has been accomplished already I know it will be fun to program and play with.  Sign me up.  Don’t worry about the future, maybe there will be a backward compatibility mode or whatever when and if you get there.  That will be a problem for then.  For now, shoot for what will make you happiest and most satisfied.  

[rje]

2 hours ago, David Morton said:

David needs to decide what will he be happy with.  How close is it to his goal building his dream computer. 

That's absolutely correct.

I think he decided when he laid out his original plans.  The design only changed when it gets blocked.

In other words, he's not dithering.

 

[maktos]

I am a big fan and a believer in this project.

That having been said, there is certainly a downside to David's announcement -- this thread -- posted 1 month 3 days ago as I write this.

If you read his post, you will walk away with a general impression of uncertainty about the future of this project, as if everything is in flux now. David publicly questions the direction the project will take, asking US what we want, etc. Nothing says "in flux" like that. Anyone who was trusting in the leadership has to be worried, as the leader himself (apparently) doesn't know what to do! That is certainly a bad thing. 

No one can deny we are in a different situation post-August 19, 2021 than we were before that. Before that date, we could all assume David has a plan (albeit with some course corrections, etc.) and everything is under control. That would be the natural, default assumption.

Virtually all of us here both LIKE the leader (David) as well as trust him. But when the leader lays out tons of problems, suggests everything is in flux, suggests that even he doesn't know what to do next -- what's a devoted supporter to do? We have to be worried, at least.

That is going to have a chilling effect on development work, etc.

MY POINT: Now that this post has been made, and David has his feedback from the community -- he needs to follow it up -- QUICKLY -- with a firm decision, and a show of leadership, so we can all trust that this project is still going to happen, everything is back under control.

Every additional day of "limbo" is only going to hurt the project. Before August 19, 2021, they could go months without posting updates, etc. NOT ANYMORE. At least not until another set plan has been put forward, that we can all re-subscribe to and trust in.

 

P.S. I say this as a big fan of David's work, and a huge believer in the necessity of 8-bit systems like this -- exactly like the X16. Even the world of Star Trek TNG would still need to teach all these concepts (though they don't show it). Unless you can download knowledge into the brain like The Matrix (which, according to my beliefs, will NEVER happen), humanity will never "outgrow" the need for simple, understandable systems like the X16. Babies would have to literally come out of the womb with an understanding of Ohm's Law, digital logic, basic electronics, etc. -- which will never happen.

[BruceMcF]

8 hours ago, paulscottrobson said:

I think 250 for the X8 is a bit pessimistic, thought it matters less because it's the easiest to physically implement I think. If it's being sold at £50-£100 I think many people would buy it even if they bought an X16 as well. It's almost a beer money purchase.

A floor is the minimum the tier needs ... as I said, they may want to be a bit conservative on the full X8 kit and set a ceiling (500 was just a guess) because of the fulfillment of packing the X8, keyboard, PS, drop in card, HDMI cable into a box. The bare board is much simpler fulfillment, so it could be more easily be a tier without a ceiling.

These are just numbers for illustration of how a set of tiers can cover the scale requirement for the keyboard without any individual product line having to hit that scale. If they are more optimistic about the demand for the X8 boards, they could well set the floor for the bare X8 boards higher, if it lets them give a better price break to set a better crowdfund tier price.

 

@maktos said, just now:

MY POINT: Now that this post has been made, and David has his feedback from the community -- he needs to follow it up -- QUICKLY -- with a firm decision, and a show of leadership, so we can all trust that this project is still going to happen, everything is back under control.



Every additional day of "limbo" is only going to hurt the project. Before August 19, 2021, they could go months without posting updates, etc. NOT ANYMORE. At least not until another set plan has been put forward, that we can all re-subscribe to and trust in.

On the other hand, it has to be on a timescale of a hardware project, not on the timescale of online computer discussion. Minimizing the number of weeks that go by before there is an announcement that clarifies the new project timeline is important, and should be a priority.

"Each day that passes" is more about the fever pace of online discussion. A hardware project doesn't operate at that time scale.

[Tatwi]

I signed up to place a vote here, but I figured it may be helpful to add some context.

Honestly, I don't have a lot of money to spend on these kinds of things. I am still using my AMD FX-8320 based desktop that I built in 2013 and I intended to replace in 2018, because you know, kids, house, etc. Even this tool I use literally every day is way down there on the priority list, so I just can't justify spending more than $100 CAD on a nostalgic toy.

Cost aside, realistically and ideally, I would actually prefer an all FPGA board that uses SD card storage, because...

• 
  It won't suffer from the issues associated with software emulators.
  


• 
  It will run software as it's intended to be run.
  


• 
  It's perfectly fine for programming new software.
  


• 
  It's small enough to mount inside a custom chassis I could build around a nostalgic-looking usb keyboard that I already own.
  


• 
  I just can't see myself ever actually using any of the expansion features of the full sized X16, but if I did sometime in the distant future, I could always upgrade at that point.
  

At this point in life, I am content to fart around with QBasic 1.1 in DOSBox, as far as my computer programming hobbies go. I do this because it's convenient, it's very nostalgic for me, and the limitations, flexibility, and static nature of the environment make it easy to break projects down into small pieces that don't over-utilize my time. Programming is to me as Sudoku is to others. That said, it would be nifty (and perhaps more motivating) if the stuff that I made might actually be used by another human being, so that's where my interest in the Commander X16 lies - moving to a platform that isn't hugely complex, isn't dead, and is its own neat thing.

Being that I prefer programming in BASIC, I looked into getting a Colour Maximite II, but after import fees and what not it would have cost about $190 CAD for just the board. For some cost perspective, my Gen1 Lenovo 100e Winbook only cost us $260 CAD new and that included a Win10 Pro licence which retails for $180 CAD (not to mention the 4 core Intel CPU, 4GB DDR4 2133RAM, and 120GB EMMC storage). As crappy as said Winbook is, it can emulate everything up to a Pentium 75 just fine.

Really, the selling points of the X16 for me are the top three points I listed above, because otherwise I already have plenty of old computers I can emulate and program with. I really like physically using the 100MB Zip drive and 3.5" floppy drive in my Compaq Deskpro 4000 (cost me a whole $25 back in 2002), for the sound and feeling, but in a practical sense I need that desk space for other stuff. So the Deskpro lives in the "underhouse", only to be used for occasionally testing software, and I just emulate everything else with my desktop (or my crummy, yet delightfully portable, laptop).

In summary,

Do I need an X16? No.

Do I want to assemble one? No.

Why don't I want to assemble one? First, I would have to buy a lot tools that I don't already have. Second, I have shaky hands that aren't well suited for soldering. I can solder, I have a Weller and a life time supply of rosin core solder, and I don't mind doing it, but I can't do well and I can't do it a lot and that means it's not something I enjoy doing.

So why would I buy the cheaper FPGA version of the X16? Ultimately, to be part of something in a way that suits my capacity and my desires.

I hope this helps. Maybe I am just one crazy old man, but perhaps there are others who feel similarly. Who knows! ?

Take care and thanks, to all involved, for all of your hard work.

[Tatwi]

On 8/20/2021 at 4:30 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

Absolutely.  I had already planned to bundle Petscii Robots with the X16.  And it can certainly run on the X8 as well.

As a Canadian everything I order from the USA costs at least 25% more due to the currency conversion and we often have to pay an additional 13% tax, plus international shipping rates and duty fees. This is why I've never purchased any of your software. As a matter of principle, I simply hate throwing away that much of our money on nothing. That said, I would make an exception if the price and the product was right. In this case, I would pay up to $70 USD for an X8, a Petscii Robots manual, a digital download copy of Petscii Robots for the X8, and a Petscii Robots box labeled for any non-Apple system that's convenient for you. Shipping would have to be $20 or less though; $90 USD is about $115 CAD and that's pushing pretty heavily on my wife's benevolence boundary. ?

I would likely never buy an a full sized X16, because it's too expensive for me to justify. Frankly, I'd rather spend $400 USD on a new motherboard/cpu/ram/power supply to upgrade my desktop. In reality, that money would go towards replacing our 35 year old washing machine, car insurance, dental fees, school fees * 3, etc.

So I suppose you could say, 

An X8 would give you money now and get me into the ecosystem without using emulation, whereas an X16 wouldn't give you anything and leaves me out, because I can't afford an X16 and if I am going to emulate, I'd rather carry on programming on devices I already own. At least from my own perspective, the X8 would be a net benefit towards reaching your over all goal of making your dream computer. It's a worthy dream, David. I hope you get there.

[VIC-2020]

WWJ(ack Tramiel)D?

Would Jack release the X8 now to bring in cold hard cash? Is there any doubt the answer is a pounding-the-table yes?

Would Jack cripple the X8 in order to make it somewhat more compatible with a planned future product that's still years away? Haha, no. You know who would? The clueless marketing division at CBM, after Jack rage-quit and had poached all the engineering talent.

Would Jack allow the X8 and the X16 to find their their own loyal and fervent audiences? He would. Jack didn't try to dictate how his computers should be used; he left that up to all the software and hardware developers who thanked him over the years for the awesome and affordable machines he released into the wild.

Would Jack sell the X8 to the masses, not the classes? Yes. Take my money. Sell me a cost-reduced keyboard with petscii keycaps, too, thank you. Nerds outside the US especially will line up by the thousands, probably tens of thousands, to buy a product that isn't loaded up with expensive import duties, high shipping costs due to weight, customs inspections and delays, etc. The X16's killer apps are just waiting to be programmed by X8 buyers around the world.

[Starsickle]

I feel bad having missed this thread since last month. If this is a Sitdown, so to speak, then I would have to add my two cents...



I am going to be very real, right now:

I am not soldering this project together. If you wanna charge us us $25*8 hours markup, be my guest. It's only fair given the circumstances.

Sadly, this violates one of the core missions of the project but let's be fair: The world simply will not allow this to be made cheaply, right now. Two hundred dollars for a complete version of the computer that's supposed to be a day-to-day usable computer is fine by me. I've spent as much on a Polish button box. It costs what it costs.

I will say this, though: I am only buying the computer ONE TIME. If updates are made, it will have to be on the board I had bought, with the components I had. I have no problem buying addon cards or other devices (Kind of the exciting part, to be honest. Feels very retro to me.), but whatever you release to the public - I want that case and computer. I want that product. I'm only buying it once. I am either waiting a long time, or hoping the crowdfunding drive nets me something neat so I can support you for far less with some headway to getting the thing I really want.



I want to add about the keyboard: The keyboard being a top end mechanical thing is way way way too much. I saw that keyboard - it's very pretty. That price, though! You absolutely need a cheaper solution, and I'm fine with anything that works on modern USB with a PS2 adapter. I have those laying around, at least. That would save money.



So, how to get my money NOW?

As for this X8: I'm going to be honest - If the X8 is companion to crowdfunding and is less than 50 bucks pledge? I would get it, but I'll say right now I have absolutely no use for a Raspberry Pi other than turning it into other hobby projects. How you fund the business venture (Be completely up front about the stretch goals - no use shorting yourself when it's obvious the costs need to be completely there.) will be important to getting this done. The X8 as Crowdfund Bait is fine enough, but I honestly don't know what I'd do with it. Even as a programmer, I'm a high level guy - I need BASIC, and I need a modern BASIC. All the work going into the kernel and ROMs is absolutely worth the time.



I want that computer. The Computer. The whole thing. I am not soldering this thing together. I don't mind assembling components into the case or chips into sockets, but I absolutely do mind burning myself and doing a sloptastic job and destroying my computer with only a "Oh well, to the forums!" or "Oops! Oh well! Spend more money!" to say if I screw anything up. Nope. Do Not Want.

[paulscottrobson]

1 hour ago, Starsickle said:

Even as a programmer, I'm a high level guy - I need BASIC, and I need a modern BASIC. All the work going into the kernel and ROMs is absolutely worth the time.

.... you aren't getting a modern BASIC.