Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Woofy · Post by **Woofy** » Sun Aug 29, 2021 9:36 pm

David,

I have been quietly following this project for a while now, and I'd like to offer a couple of observations which you will not like, and a couple of solutions which I suspect you will also not like.

1. This project has turned into a camel (horse designed by a committee). Too many people pulling in different directions.

2. It's getting held up by individuals stuck on issues. No offence to these people who are giving up huge amounts of time and effort whenever they can, but it is happening.

solutions:

1. This is your vision, your baby. Take back control of the project. Decide what it is you want, define it. Publish a specification.

2. Open source the entire project. You have a massive group of very talented people here, Hardware and software designers. Yes, I know you have licencing issues such as BASIC. Dump it! Its only basic interpreter and a clean version can be written from scratch with the skills here. But unless its open source it won't happen. Hardware and software bugs will also vanish quickly will so many eyes on it. With open PCB artwork available folks can build their own computers, sourcing components themselves. With so much real hardware available firmware development will accelerate.

See, I knew you wouldn't like it. (:-)

I do fear though, that if things continue as now, the whole project could falter.

Carl Gundel · Post by **Carl Gundel** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 12:50 am

6 hours ago, KnightFire said:

The keyboard, does it have PETSCII on the keycaps? It's probably too late to inquire, but why wasn't a USB model chosen and then a USB to PS/2 adapter used to connect with the X16? I'd buy such a PETSCII keyboard even if I just had it to use with Vice on an RPi.

I would be happy enough if I could buy just the keycaps. I have a keyboard I can use them with. Decent MX switch type ten keyless keyboards can be had for cheap.

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:28 am

6 hours ago, KnightFire said:

I'm all in to tossing $5us in the donation hat. Don't forget that Kickstarter also sticks their fingers in the pie. So I'd prefer a direct donation method, and avoid having to buy a t-shirt/cup/pen/pin/cap - but would consider a Commander X16 case badge purchase.

The keyboard, does it have PETSCII on the keycaps? It's probably too late to inquire, but why wasn't a USB model chosen and then a USB to PS/2 adapter used to connect with the X16? I'd buy such a PETSCII keyboard even if I just had it to use with Vice on an RPi.

I'm biting my tongue on the X8, if it was tweaked wouldn't it just be the Phase-3 X16e?

From what they've said, the standard keyboard will have PETSCII on the keycaps, and will be a dual mode keyboard, so it will come with one of those passive adapters to plug into USB as well.

The deluxe keyboard, already available, is the same ... it has to ship with a slightly older version of the firmware for that keyboard, because the newest version no longer supports dual mode functioning. (Some people got the impression those are general purpose PS/2 to USB adapters, rather than the keyboard being dual-mode.)

The PS/2 is not because that's easier to find for the keyboard, but because PS/2 is easier to support with 8bit systems ... its predecessor, the AT keyboard was originally, after all, read by an 8bit microcontroller inside the IBM-AT.

Luckarusky · Post by **Luckarusky** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:02 am

I'm honestly willing to pay the money for something pre-assembled. As for waiting, I'd only hold out for Phase 3 if there's a minor benifit to that like a slightly faster CPU. Otherwise I'm getting this machine to see what the community creates on it. Given the special hardware tricks aboard, that should prove interesting to the extreme!

Luckarusky · Post by **Luckarusky** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:05 am

5 hours ago, Woofy said:

David,

I have been quietly following this project for a while now, and I'd like to offer a couple of observations which you will not like, and a couple of solutions which I suspect you will also not like.

1. This project has turned into a camel (horse designed by a committee). Too many people pulling in different directions.

2. It's getting held up by individuals stuck on issues. No offence to these people who are giving up huge amounts of time and effort whenever they can, but it is happening.

solutions:

1. This is your vision, your baby. Take back control of the project. Decide what it is you want, define it. Publish a specification.

2. Open source the entire project. You have a massive group of very talented people here, Hardware and software designers. Yes, I know you have licencing issues such as BASIC. Dump it! Its only basic interpreter and a clean version can be written from scratch with the skills here. But unless its open source it won't happen. Hardware and software bugs will also vanish quickly will so many eyes on it. With open PCB artwork available folks can build their own computers, sourcing components themselves. With so much real hardware available firmware development will accelerate.

See, I knew you wouldn't like it. (:-)

I do fear though, that if things continue as now, the whole project could falter.

I'm honestly obliged to agree that what exists should be tightened up. The goal here is an 8-bit machine made from all still-produced parts. Between that, and getting past the licensing, this becomes a community machine if the code exists for people to work from.

Scott Robison · Post by **Scott Robison** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 3:07 am

2 hours ago, Carl Gundel said:

I would be happy enough if I could buy just the keycaps. I have a keyboard I can use them with. Decent MX switch type ten keyless keyboards can be had for cheap.

You can: https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/commander16-by-the-8-bit-guy-87-key-custom-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:10 am

7 hours ago, Woofy said:

1. This is your vision, your baby. Take back control of the project. Decide what it is you want, define it. Publish a specification.

2. Open source the entire project. You have a massive group of very talented people here, Hardware and software designers. Yes, I know you have licencing issues such as BASIC. Dump it! Its only basic interpreter and a clean version can be written from scratch with the skills here. But unless its open source it won't happen. Hardware and software bugs will also vanish quickly will so many eyes on it. With open PCB artwork available folks can build their own computers, sourcing components themselves. With so much real hardware available firmware development will accelerate.

I mean, it's one thing to say "decide what it is that you want", but what if what he wants doesn't line up with your proposed "solution" to a vaguely described problem?

It's been clear for quite a while that what he wanted was something largely compatible with C64 Basic and KERNAL programming, and with the Cloanto licensing agreement, he got what he wanted.

So this reads like, "1. This is your vision. ... 2. But forget number 1, I have a different vision: ..."

It's not like open sourcing the project makes it risk free. Open source projects can stall, they can get bogged down into in fighting, they can fracture, they can get caught into heading in directions few people planned because of contributions made by people who had time available and an agenda to move the project in a different direction. I strongly believe in open-source software development, but it's a real world process, and no real world process is perfect.

Shauny · Post by **Shauny** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:39 pm

23 hours ago, Woofy said:

David,

I have been quietly following this project for a while now, and I'd like to offer a couple of observations which you will not like, and a couple of solutions which I suspect you will also not like.

1. This project has turned into a camel (horse designed by a committee). Too many people pulling in different directions.

2. It's getting held up by individuals stuck on issues. No offence to these people who are giving up huge amounts of time and effort whenever they can, but it is happening.

solutions:

1. This is your vision, your baby. Take back control of the project. Decide what it is you want, define it. Publish a specification.

2. Open source the entire project. You have a massive group of very talented people here, Hardware and software designers. Yes, I know you have licencing issues such as BASIC. Dump it! Its only basic interpreter and a clean version can be written from scratch with the skills here. But unless its open source it won't happen. Hardware and software bugs will also vanish quickly will so many eyes on it. With open PCB artwork available folks can build their own computers, sourcing components themselves. With so much real hardware available firmware development will accelerate.

See, I knew you wouldn't like it. (:-)

I do fear though, that if things continue as now, the whole project could falter.

Have to agree, you've hit the "Camel on the head"

Carl Gundel · Post by **Carl Gundel** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:24 pm

18 hours ago, Scott Robison said:

You can: https://www.wasdkeyboards.com/commander16-by-the-8-bit-guy-87-key-custom-cherry-mx-keycap-set.html

Neat! Thanks!

Tassilo · Post by **Tassilo** » Mon Aug 30, 2021 9:43 pm

On 8/20/2021 at 5:32 AM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

this are my 2 cents...

i always was just interested in the dip version, dont even need a case. that also would more fit the idea that ppl could "fiddel arround". back when, i was young my first self-soldered computer had an old cigar-box as housing wich added to the flair of this time. ?

an all fpga version isnt interesting at all, theres enough of these arround. what i liked from the beginning was that everything should be accessible and could be tinkered with, thats why i also not a big fan of the emmulator for example.

another wish : please make the vera avalible. over the years friends and me build several 6502 and z80 based boards but what was missing was always a decent graphics module. and i think a lot of other ppl think the same way.