Change of product direction, good and bad news!

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SplitSpine
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:16 am

Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by SplitSpine »



1 hour ago, kelli217 said:




Last but not least: Those of you who have said that they would rather donate directly rather than buy an X8, great! You don't have to wait for the product to be available for sale nor for David to set up a specific donation infrastructure; you can donate right now, to his Patreon! I did! Here's the URL: https://patreon.com/8bitguy1



Pretty sure he has not set up a Patreon for that purpose (but he did say he might do it, see his post on page 7).

John Chow Seymour
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Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:27 pm

Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by John Chow Seymour »


So, here's another way of looking at it.  

The goal of the project was always to make cool stuff for the people who share this hobby (8-bit computing).  Frank came up with this X8 thing because he was doing what talented hobbyists do: making cool stuff.  And so, the Commander project resulted in two devices.  

The community is already enjoying that result: in this very thread people are discussing hypothetically how to port from one to the other, how to program so that things will work on both, etc.  In other words, we're already doing exactly the kind of stuff this community likes doing.

It looks like, if you release both, there will be more for the community to enjoy. 

I don't know that you have to worry about 'fragmenting' the user base. In particular, the idea that people will now only program for the X8 as the 'lowest common platform' doesn't really apply in a situation where the software isn't being made commercially anyway.  (If people only wanted to code for the bestselling platforms in order to make money, they'd code for Win/Mac/iOS/Android.)

My guess is that people will code for both the X8 and the X16 because they're both fun to code for.  If the community is split between the two, it's not necessarily bad, it's just the community enjoying more cool stuff.  (So, keep the X8 as awesome as possible and leave at full speed!)

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Cyber
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Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:36 am

Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by Cyber »



11 minutes ago, John Chow Seymour said:




My guess is that people will code for both the X8 and the X16 because they're both fun to code for.  If the community is split between the two, it's not necessarily bad, it's just the community enjoying more cool stuff.  (So, keep the X8 as awesome as possible and leave at full speed!)



I don't know how will it be in reality, but sometimes I want to look through rose colored glasses. I second on this! Nowdays we observe new games and other programs are being developed for different systems - different Commodores, different Spectrums, different Nintendos, etc. I'm so much astonished when I learn about a new flashy software product released for some retro system. I want to believe that over time both X8 and X16 will have their own collections of software they can be proud of.

Getafix
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2020 6:13 pm

Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by Getafix »



9 minutes ago, John Chow Seymour said:




I don't know that you have to worry about 'fragmenting' the user base. In particular, the idea that people will now only program for the X8 as the 'lowest common platform' doesn't really apply in a situation where the software isn't being made commercially anyway.



My guess is that people will code for both the X8 and the X16 because they're both fun to code for.  If the community is split between the two, it's not necessarily bad, it's just the community enjoying more cool stuff.  (So, keep the X8 as awesome as possible and leave at full speed!)



I believe people are very price sensitive. If you get the X8 now for under $50, it scratches the itch.  How many people will spend a lot more later for the X16 when the X8 runs most of the software?  

I think the X8 will inevitably cannabalize the X16 market, probably killing the X16's chances.  In the big picture, maybe that's not really a problem anyway?

Scott Robison
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2021 9:06 pm

Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by Scott Robison »



11 hours ago, Stefan said:




I do not believe in hiding the differences between X16 and X8 behind API layers. 8 bit computers running at 8 or 12 MHz need all computational power they have if we are to make great programs. Even if there were such an API many assembly programmers would avoid it to gain performance.



I appreciate that point of view, but not all applications are created equal. Software engineering is in large part about analyzing the pros and cons of different solutions and picking the best for a given use case. So for those people who do not want to use an abstraction interface, they have the option of having two versions of the program (if they want to support two platforms). If a single source base is more valuable for another application, it can use an abstraction interface.

Note: This presupposes that the X8 interface cannot or will not be reconciled to the X16 VERA interface. My comment is not about VERA specifically, just a generalized case of "not all problems require the same solution, and not all solutions are applicable to all problems".

TomXP411
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2020 8:49 pm

Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by TomXP411 »



9 hours ago, VincentF said:




It's not possible with the X8's VERA implementation, we got a 256 bytes window that is just impossible (or too expensive) to do on real hardware for the X16 ?



It is not possible.  The VERA FPGA does not have enough pins for that. 

Scott Robison
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Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by Scott Robison »



11 hours ago, BruceMcF said:




Seriously, the point of crowdfunding is to let the "crowd" of willing customers help with funding the development of a project starting at some stage in its development. It also gives the most accurate real world indicator of whether to do the development, in terms of whether it hits its minimum funding requirement.



I agree *but* there is an ever increasing number of people in these communities that do not look at Kickstarter et al as a proposition with inherent risk. They look at it as a pre-order and they look at dates as inviolate contracts. Those of us who've backed a kickstarter that never materialized know better, but it stings to know you just blew $X on something that never happened. Like the Super Screen Kickstarter that took $2.5M and never released *anything*.



Then there is the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard that did ship, but it took about 4 to 4.5 years for me to get everything I paid for (and I bear them no ill will, because they were communicative).

David has spent a lot of time building a reputation that he clearly does not want to see disappear. Even if people are in the wrong for believing they are being guaranteed anything, the harm to his reputation is just as real whether or not they are being rational and reasonable.

I am often asked "how long will it take to accomplish X" at work. I hate to answer that question because of the the "unknown unknowns". Usually people understand if it doesn't come in at the exact time estimated. Sometimes people expected a rock solid answer when they asked for an estimate. Either way, if I miss it, I feel bad for not being better at my job.

Scott Robison
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Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by Scott Robison »



7 hours ago, Stefan said:




If doing code for both X16 and X8, I would for performance reasons first look into creating a set of macros rather than using a common API.



As to bank switching, such a macro could on the X16 just select the RAM bank.



On the X8 that macro could load a virtual memory file (for instance numbered 0-255) into memory area $a000-$bfff. However, first the current content of $a000-$bfff need to be saved to its virtual memory file.



Maybe similar solutions are available for VERA access. I haven't given that much thought yet.



This was more or less what I was suggesting in my original post. Whether the platform provides such a thing in the kernal or individual developers develop it themselves, this is an API. It would not be difficult at all, if it isn't baked into the ROM, to create a standardized library interface that people can include / compile / link into their programs.

Abstraction *can* be slow. It does not have to be.

Scott Robison
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Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by Scott Robison »



4 hours ago, SplitSpine said:




Pretty sure he has not set up a Patreon for that purpose (but he did say he might do it, see his post on page 7).



My thought, and presumably the thought of the person you replied to, is:

David said he has invested 5 figures (>= $10,000) into this project thus far. That is money that takes away from other things.

X16 started as a video on his YouTube channel. Thus, contributing money to his YouTube efforts is more or less the same thing. Sure, having a dedicated place for X16 is a good idea whenever he gets around to it. In the meantime, I've been watching his videos for some months now (while I've been on YouTube for years and created some of my own content, I've never subbed and waited for content until recently) without contributing to him. So if I start contributing to him now, it helps offset a tiny bit of his expenses thus far, and even if I *never* see an X16 in physical form, I figure I owe him for dozens of hours of content I've consumed.

So don't donate to Patreon if you don't want to, but it sure isn't going to hurt in the meantime.

xcv330
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Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:29 pm

Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Post by xcv330 »


I am coming late to this, from the facebook group, but I wanted to say for whatever its worth, the X8 sounds exactly like what I was hoping for when this project first began. I think if the price point is low enough, this really would be useful for teaching as well. If it sells in numbers you can get a much broader base of people wanting to develop for it.

Someone mentioned slowing it down so that it would not be faster than the X16. That strikes me as a terrible idea that's been tried before.

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