Change of product direction, good and bad news!

zeropolis79 · Post by **zeropolis79** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:34 pm

2 hours ago, BruceMcF said:

The software where everything fits comfortably into 64K RAM (well, 54K of RAM taking system RAM use into account) are the "very few things" that I was referring to.

How quickly people have forgotten how little room 64K of RAM really is.

I've not.. I've been working on porting a few games a friend of mine did on the Amstrad CPC to the Commodore 64. The text adventure was a breeze but the game created on the UK originated 3D Construction Kit was near impossible - compared to the Amstrad, the C64 has a lot less memory to use in that program so porting her game was impossible.

zeropolis79 · Post by **zeropolis79** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:41 pm

4 minutes ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

So, I'm just going to answer a few more concerns about the X8.

One person said I was clearly in favor of this, or something to that effect. Well, I made that clear at the beginning. I wanted to release it 6 months ago. I haven't tried to cover that up.

Several people seemed concerned about how much money I was going to make from this project and how the X8 might reduce that. I know I have said this before, but I'll say it again. This project was NEVER about money for me. In fact, I've made it clear many times that I never intended to profit from this project at all. All profits made from the X16 would be split between Kevin, Frank, Michael, Perifractic, and a few other people. I have told the entire time many times I didn't want anything. I'd rather my "profit" be sacrificed to help reduce the cost of the system. My main goal was to have my dream computer, and that other people would have it too. Now, if it ends up selling millions of units, ok, we'll re-visit that conversation. But that's not likely.

I haven't released the emulator for the obvious reason that if this product is to be buried and never see the light of day, I'd rather the emulator just not be out there. So we'll release that if it is decided to go forward with it.

I suppose I could find some time next week to port Petscii Robots to the X8 for demonstration, since some people were asking about that. It shouldn't take long. Petscii Robots doesn't use any banked RAM. After all, it was originally designed for a computer with 32K. However, I was going to be using banked RAM for the new soundtrack eventually. But at the same time, having access to the SD card can compensate for that. I could load each song in as needed, for example, rather than storing them all in RAM at once.

Some people seem confused on why I'm in favor of releasing this. So I'm going to open up and totally lay it out here. This is my honest opinion on that matter: The X16 has taken much longer to bring to market that I thought. There were many times where development was halted for 6 months or more because of unsolvable bugs. And even though we are close to being able to release a kit fo the X16, it's going to still take more time to get this out the door and the people wanting fully assembled systems will be waiting extra time. The X16 is definitely happening. The X8 is not meant as a replacement for it. But, I felt like the X8 with it's super-low price-tag and easy manufacturing could help keep interest in the project much like "The C64 Mini" did, even though everyone was wanting a full-sized machine. This would keep development on-going, and most anything made for the X8 could easily be ported to the X16 later. I do not believe X8 sales will cannibalize X16p sales. And sales of the X8 could even help to fund more development on the X16 surface-mount version and eventual X8-FPGA version. And for those people that don't want an X8, it seems like the solution is simple. Just don't buy one. Buy the X16p instead. Or wait for phase-2, or whatever.

The way I see it, people can choose if they want the X8, X16 or both.

Personally, I'd love to buy both but funds won't allow it, but I'd gladly buy an X8, even if it's just a working populated board (I've recently got a mini 3D printer so I could print a case).. I don't see sales of an X8 dimishing sales of the X16.. But I agree, the X8 can keep interest in the project alive. I mentioned above that I'd gladly pay the mentioned $50 for an X8 and I'd add $10 or $20 extra to help development of the X16.

I've watched the videos you and Perifractic have done with great interest (I've always wanted to design my own computer) and I'd consider it a great sadness if nothing came of all the hard work everyone has put into it.

Perifractic · Post by **Perifractic** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 6:40 pm

Jestin · Post by **Jestin** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:22 pm

1 hour ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

I have told the entire time many times I didn't want anything. I'd rather my "profit" be sacrificed to help reduce the cost of the system. My main goal was to have my dream computer, and that other people would have it too

Wow. This is very noble of you, and I for one am grateful that this community has someone like you in it. It's impressive that you can will projects like the Commander X16 into existence fueled on enthusiasm alone.

That said, I was also hoping you would be making a reasonable amount of profit for your efforts. Frankly, you deserve it, but there's another reason as well. Not to get into a macro-economical debate, but one of the benefits of capitalism is that it's supposed to put resources into the hands of those who have proven to best utilize them. You, sir, are one of those people. I feel the retro community would be better off with a wealthier 8-bit Guy who has more resources and more financial motivation to continue taking on inspiring projects.

Fnord42 · Post by **Fnord42** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:33 pm

Okay, having read and thought about this a lot more than I had when I answered the poll, I must admit I changed my mind.

I now think very few people here will lose interest in the X16 just because they can have an X8 now, and it will allow Dave to get some money to fund further X16 development while giving the people something to play with and pass the time in return. Regarding compatibility, I don't see why the X8 could not easily be modified to use the X16's Vera addressing scheme, at least optionally. The only thing that I have conflicting feelings about is the speed - it would feel "more right" to me if the X16 was not slower than its little brother. Slowing down the X8 to 8MHz by default might avoid the strange feeling of "not really upgrading" when switching to the X16 later. And it would certainly avoid some porting issues later on.

So, my revised opinion is:

Gimme the X8 now! (Maybe only 6 or 8 MHz though)

Phase 1 X16P Kit next

Phase 2 for the non-solderers that still want most of the retro experience and expandability

Fenner Machine · Post by **Fenner Machine** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:37 pm

I voted 1: No, 2: No, 3: Pre-assembled.

After having read all the comments so far I think I've changed my mind on all 3 to a certain extent.

Specifically the X8:

It seems that David maybe wants to release the X8. At under $50 it might be worth doing so.

The only big issues I have with it is the seemingly low amount of RAM and VRAM.

I know it’s something to do with the FPGA, but the VERA seems like it deserves more RAM.

Other than that, for $50 it seems like an interesting ‘mini’ X16.

What would be the feasibility of a bigger FPGA and adding a YM2151 as others have suggested plus more RAM? Could it be done, and what would be the likely cost?

But at $50 for the current, working, almost ready to ship X8, I say why not?

As a famous emperor once said “Dew it!”.

x16tial · Post by **x16tial** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:39 pm

2 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

I haven't released the emulator for the obvious reason that if this product is to be buried and never see the light of day, I'd rather the emulator just not be out there.

I don't think the reason is obvious or makes sense, frankly, it being "out there" could drive demand for something you want to release. And couldn't the emulator be presented just on the web like the X16 web emulator, so that it couldn't be downloaded, if that's really what you want?

And still, even just all the specs about how the X8 works could be released, a memory map at the very least.

But fine, perhaps my current feeling of weariness is much like your own. Mostly because it will help X16 development, but party because it does sound like a cool product, and a little bit because it seems to be the only way to get any solid info on it, sell me an X8.

Please, even mark it up to $100 as I've said before, or how about this: $64. Seems appropriate.

I should be done posting on this thread, I await the announcement on how to get one.

Snickers11001001 · Post by **Snickers11001001** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:49 pm

2 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

The X16 is definitely happening. The X8 is not meant as a replacement for it.

Reassuring to see that said out loud. I'm pretty sure that's the crux of what people are worried about. The concern is that the X8 would come out, and the team would take their foot off the gas (perhaps due to community dev focus shifting to X8 architecture since they are different), and eventually the X16 -- which is what people have been salivating for these last couple years -- would die on the vine. Its good to see that you specifically disavow that outcome.

2 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

I haven't released the emulator for the obvious reason that if this product is to be buried and never see the light of day, I'd rather the emulator just not be out there. So we'll release that if it is decided to go forward with it.

Um, I don't actually think that's the 'obvious' approach at all. You just said you are in FAVOR of getting the X8 out there. A lot of the concern comes from people not having any idea what that actually means. To accumulate community support, it actually seems to me the obvious approach would be to get the X8 emulator out there. Assuming it does turn out easy to tweak things to deal with the differences, that will go a long way in terms of 'winning hearts and minds' -- especially in view of your above commitment not to treat the X8 as a replacement for the X16.

Just my two cents. Oh and its not in the poll anywhere, but I'd like to go on record to say I would happily pay upwards of $80 for the X8 assuming I had a chance to fiddle with the emulator and was able to satisfy myself I can rock with the platform. Cheers.

Ciska · Post by **Ciska** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:00 pm

I would love to assemble it myself ( i em 62 of age and yeah a woman) ,it give's me back lots and lots of pleasure and brings back memories repair and assemble hardware ,

And on top of that we have to pay a lot of tax and costumer services declaration fees for electronics and so on keep up the good work

James Anders Banks · Post by **James Anders Banks** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 8:14 pm

11 hours ago, James Anders Banks said:

I agree with that ... however, if the Vic 20 and the C64 had been released at the same time, would anyone have developed for the Vic 20?

Just quoting myself here...

I guess any potential devil is in the details. I think the problem that many of us have expressed concern about is a solving problem, because the whole point of releasing the X8 now is that the X16 can't be released for quote some time. Maybe a year or two would pass before it was ready, and by then the people would be ready to try something new.

I'd still be concerned about the X8 being in some obvious ways (even if not in every important way) more powerful - I'd rather see it being at least a LITTLE slower than the X16.