Change of product direction, good and bad news!

EMwhite · Post by **EMwhite** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:09 am

33 minutes ago, Larky said:Looks like I’ll have to buy THEC64 for now. Good luck gang.

It’s a nice ‘machine’. I bought two, one to keep for a rainy day. Be sure to watch all 3 of “8-bit Show and Tell” (Robin’s) YouTube videos. They (and it) are very good.

Snickers11001001 · Post by **Snickers11001001** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:16 am

4 hours ago, calags said:

I think it may make sense to release the X8 but only if the BASIC it uses is compatible with the X16 BASIC with enough keywords to implement compatible graphics and sound functions.

That is impossible in the current state of things. There are not basic commands for graphics or sound like the C128 or Plus/4. Its all pokes and vpokes, that true for sound, sprites, tiles, etc. The only exceptions are simple graphics like putting a pixel or a line on the bitmap.

That means if X8 comes out with a vastly different VERA interface it will nuke all the work people have done on the emulated platform that's been out and targeted with development for years. (Edited to add: Its one thing to say 'don't rely on official kernal calls; they may change' and quite another to say 'oh, the core video is getting torn out after 2 years, so sorry!') There's a lot of ways to burn goodwill besides just not delivering on a kickstarterer. Having some rando (to you) subject matter expert dedicate 100+ hours on a an assembler core, or IDE, or music tracker, or etc., etc., etc., only to say "oops, just rewrite your work to use a vastly different VERA" is like slapping that guy in the face. Not only will he be reticent to go all in for your project again, but anyone who watches it happen will be likewise hesitate.

The X8 will kill this project and ecosystem in my view. Just go to the 'downloads' section of this site and ask: How much of this stuff would actually work with what has been described as the X8. That sort of pivot would be tantamount to a bait and switch. Sorry if it is rude or uncouth to say so, but somebody has to.

EDITED: I've edited to moderate my tone slightly. Sorry for the language prior to the edit.

John Chow Seymour · Post by **John Chow Seymour** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:44 am

If I'm going to buy something to help get some cash into the project, then given the choice between an X8 and a caseless Phase 1 kit (which you mentioned might be sellable soon), I'd take the X16p kit. I enjoy soldering and was always going to get the kit anyway, plus (as @Snickers11001001 mentioned above) the X16 is the system we've all been preparing for.

That said, the extra speed of the X8 is a little intriguing. I'd still like to know how much more difficult the USB inputs will be to program for (say, in Assembly). Does the hardware do most of the handshaking work or will we have to implement that by hand in our assembly code?

BruceMcF · Post by **BruceMcF** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 2:55 am

22 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

Phase 2 would likely have 1 or possibly 2 expansion slots compatible with the phase-1 system. Phase 3 would have no expansion capabilities.

One is probably enough, if the new version slot is like the previous slots with the slot number selects going to each slot ... because with the slot number selects going to each slot, a riser board can be made if you want two slots.

You really could have a "no opinion" on question 3 ... I voted pre-built, since if my financial circumstances suddenly became much better, that's the one I'd buy ... but I'm only realistically in the market for the Phase2 system.

I would get the X8 in parallel with Phase2, to make sure I can develop Forth vocabularies on the systems that are cross system compatible.

And seriously look at whether with a larger FPGA in the same family, whether a soft YM2151 can be included in the X8. That is the key difference with the X16 Phase3 in terms of how software developed on the X16 then ported to the X8 would be developed. The other differences are mostly #ifdef X8 / #ifdef X16 stuff.

ZeroByte · Post by **ZeroByte** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:09 am

2 hours ago, Stéphane said:

The Yamaha chip

The YM2151 predates VERA PSG in the design. It's a real through hole ASIC. It has standard IO mapped ports. It was one of the original contenders as THE sound chip. It's only breaking the "no new old stock" rule, which isn't so bad because its output is digital, and an FPGA core exists that can stand in for the real McCoy with sample-accurate output.

Not a good example of "feature creep."

Sid_Som · Post by **Sid_Som** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:29 am

23 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

I know Perifractic has already invested a 4-digit number of Dollars towards this project. Myself, that number is 5 digits. And up to this point, none of us have made a dime back

Wow!

Sid_Som · Post by **Sid_Som** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:42 am

On 8/19/2021 at 11:32 PM, The 8-Bit Guy said:

The second option would be to build-to-order. So you place the order, we build the computer and add a substantial mark up for the 8-hours of labor to assemble it. But you get a fully working and tested board, which would come with some minimal warranty. I don't have specific numbers for cost. But I'd imagine a fully assembled kit would have a markup somewhere in ballpark of $100 to $200 over the kit version. I know that sounds like a lot, but when you see how much time is involved, it only makes sense.

Also both the kit and pre-built machine will come with the custom keyboard. I've already paid 50% down for the PS/2 keyboards, so it makes sense for me to pay the rest and have those included with the computer.

So, the bad news is, you don't get a case with phase-1. But on the bright side, this change means the kits could be available relatively soon. However, as you saw in the last video there are still some Kernal bugs that need fixing and our primary Kernal developer has taken a small hiatus due to some other large project that is consuming his time. We're not sure at this point when these bugs would be fixed. However, we could start shipping limited number of "development" systems to people who are already writing code. And hopefully all we'd need is a ROM update to fix these boards when the kernal bugs are addressed.

My concern with buying this one, would be the Kernal bug(s). How would I get my system patched?

I would like to buy a pre-assembled phase-1 and not have to worry about phase 2/3.

Is this already being sold or pre-orders being sold?

StinkerB06 · Post by **StinkerB06** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:43 am

@The 8-Bit Guy Does the X8 have weaker video hardware than the X16 does? For example, the number of layers, sprites, or color palette entries being reduced, or having a fewer selection of video modes?

x16tial · Post by **x16tial** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:46 am

You know, thinking about this, we just don't know enough about the X8.

First off, why was it created in the first place? Hats off to Frank for doing it, the guy is just a super genius, to be sure. But was it something like "USB is too hard? Hold my beer." or what? I'm a bit puzzled by its very existence, while still being impressed by it. (12 Mhz!)

@The 8-Bit Guy, you said there was an emulator. As part of this feedback process about how to go forward, can't we get access to the emulator?

You said 64K of RAM yes? So are the ROMs switchable, a la the C64? How is the RAM vs ROM treated then, if not very similar to the C64?

Have you fully ported Petscii Robots to the X8? What were the pain points, if any, in that process? Or were the X16 and X8 versions simply developed in parallel?

In all honesty, the X8 does really muddy the waters. Doing both the X16 and the X8 just seems like "too much". The choice, as hard as it is, probably need to come down to: which one do you kill? And at this moment, I for one, am not sure which.

Like, would snes controllers be usable with usb adapters, on the X8? Like this: https://www.amazon.com/Tomee-SNES-USB-Controller-Adapter-pc/dp/B00HM3QCT6

Is the IEC port really needed?

I haven't done much sound work yet, but is the Yamaha chip critical?

And USB is more tantalizing than old, tired PS/2, to be honest.

As I think about this more, it seems like we're talking more and more about a VERA ecosystem. It's doing the I/O, the sound, the graphics, and basically the X8 sounds like a VERA ate a 65C02, met a nice USB interface and moved out on its own.

So if you basically have the "VERA ecosystem" and it's processor agnostic, then you have the X8, as a standalone, but then you'll want to make add-on cards for C64, the Vic 20, and why not other 65xx systems, like the Apple II, and others? Maybe just embracing the VERA is the way forward.

Sid_Som · Post by **Sid_Som** » Sat Aug 21, 2021 3:59 am

7 hours ago, The 8-Bit Guy said:

Regardless of whether a crowd funding platform requires something or not, I have a reputation of integrity to uphold. The last thing I want is people saying that the 8-Bit Guy took their money and didn't deliver on a promise. However, I have been considering doing some sort of crowdfunding where it would literally just be asking for donations to keep this project alive. An infusion of $20,000 with no requirement to repay it would go a LONG way to pushing this product out to the public. $100,000 would guarantee a successful launch. But that's a lot to ask. I know there are several thousand people interested in this. If everyone just donated $5 that would probably be an incredible help.

That is a great idea to ask for donations.

I would be more than happy to donate to the project; would love to see an X16 and get one.

Perhaps pre-orders could help too maybe?