Change of product direction, good and bad news!

Cyber · Post by **Cyber** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:30 am

I participated in several crowdfunding projects as a baker, but I don't fully understand how it works under the hood. How bad for a campaign to fail the goal sum? I understand that all money should be refunded to every baker. How much of a hassle is it? If it's not a problem to make refunds it would be useful to make a crowdfunding of each of these polls, and this would surely show what people really ready to pay for, and what not.

May be a lame suggestion. Sorry. Just making a thought.

Tmp2k · Post by **Tmp2k** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:36 am

I work with a bespoke SFF case manufacturer. There's no minimum order, the cases are manufactured ad-hoc. The case could be designed from scratch around the X16 and supplied in kit form or fully assembled. Right at the start, before you announced the official case, we were looking at offering our own product to go with the X16.

I'd love to work with you and produce an official case, or if you don't want the hassle of managing a new case project maybe we could just produce our own complimentary product?

Hope this post doesn't get lost in the noise, please drop me a PM.

PeterAssen · Post by **PeterAssen** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:08 am

Being creative on the commodore machines for me was always about trying to get awesome results despite the limitations of vic/vic2/sid/ted chips. The X8 platform seems to provide a platform suitable for plenty of "brain masturbation". I could program on it and have fun with graphics and sound. That's what it's about for me.

StephenHorn · Post by **StephenHorn** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:11 am

A kit of this complexity is intimidating to build. But in the end, my wallet is ready. I'm excited to give it a try.

Wavicle · Post by **Wavicle** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:20 am

Speaking only for myself - I'm most interested in the VERA and hoping the RTL for it eventually gets open sourced. Sell that by itself and I could build the rest of the system. However since you've already got the board done, I'd purchase one of those also (if it comes with schematics so I'm not having to guess which parts to insert into which holes).

A part of me still has high hopes for the project. Having been a small player in large teams that have brought a number of Intel products and later Microsoft hardware devices to market, I looked on with great fascination. I had suspected that some of the choices made would end up consuming a lot of time and money, but I have only experienced hardware development from the perspective of a tech giant with deep pockets. I hoped to learn something about how a small nimble team brings products to market on a budget.

Even if the product doesn't reach the market, as I tell my kids: it's only a failure if you fail to learn from it. (And if you think that sounds like a completely vapid adage, they'd agree with you.) It seems like you've now got material for a several part documentary on the story behind the X16, what went wrong, and the things to look out for when building a new computer. Obviously looking in from the outside, I don't know what happened internally, but I can think of a few BKMs I'd bring with me were I to give the startup scale development thing a try.

LordFisch · Post by **LordFisch** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 8:40 am

Personally I would love a phase 1 kit. As for the case, I think it would be great if we could purchase it separately.

Mr Jones · Post by **Mr Jones** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:07 am

I've been kind of watching this project pan out and commend you on your energy to see it through this far David. I feel compelled to share my commercial opinion.

I run a small business, we've been operating for 17 years. We have launched loads of new products in our range. Some successful, some not so much.

What I can tell you is that it matters little as to how well refined the product is or how close it is to a detailed complicated specification when you are budget constrained. It matters more that the product is delivered. And it matters most WHEN the product is delivered. For that reason you should proceed with your first model and get it to market. It doesn't matter if it gets superseded. That just creates history for the lineage. You can fix things as you go, and you know you will have to anyway.

You will never please everyone, and often the noise from the people in the community outstrips the thoughts of the people who will immediately buy the product. The majority of the caucus may not be the majority if the buying public. Trust your instincts, it's the only way you won't regret decisions you make.

Whatever we you decide, best of luck!

rthdavid · Post by **rthdavid** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:07 am

For what it's worth, I'd like to see all effort and energy put into production and shipping of the Commander X16 mainboard with a list of components and where to obtain them.

I don't really care about a branded case or a deluxe keyboard at this time. I just want to get my hands on a mainboard and have a go at building it.

Chris Grillo · Post by **Chris Grillo** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:35 am

The X8 and X16 sound somewhat like the VIC20 and the C64... To be honest, I do not want to be bothered with large cases, atx power supplies and space huggers anymore. I just don't have the space anymore. Commodores. Spectrums, Ataris all over the place, and I just emulate everything these days... NOT ideal, naturally.

That's just me of course. A single board PI size X8 with USB would suit me just fine. IF the price for the X8 is very low (say up to $50), then people would have no problems in buying both the X8 and X16.

When this brilliant project started, my first thought (as a PCB designer) was "There are way too many variables for this to get off the ground." It seems it is reaching a point where I can say "I told you so" , although of course, in a sad way!!!

I am a former PCB designer, now IT Administrator in an industrial electronics company. Our waiting list and delivery times for components are running into many months (as much as 18!). Prices are off the scale of any chart we came up with and we simply cannot see any way past it. And we buy in MILLIONS of EUROS worth of components. Mostly surface mount. Components are so so hard to come by these days. Small amounts will be simply rejected or priced beyond reach.

If the design of the X16 were redone using 1206 components, they would be very viable for somebody at home to solder. 1206 components are being now put to the side with many unsold millions still lingering.

As it is, send me an X8 please. Sincerely hoping you sort this out as it is a massive achievement to bring to fruition.

Amy Worrall · Post by **Amy Worrall** » Fri Aug 20, 2021 9:46 am

I’d go with a phase 1 kit if buying the prebuilt one would add significant cost.

Personally I can’t see the point in phases 2 or 3. The original goal was a computer where you could understand every part of it. Phase 1 fits that scope much better. Also, it seems to me that planning subsequent phases just makes the project bigger. I’d suggest concentrating on phase 1 and shipping it before making further plans.

Being realistic, very few people will buy this if they’re not interested in retro computer architectures or programming already. It’s not going to have a software ecosystem to compete with today’s consoles. I’d take that clarity of purpose and super optimise for it.

I’m more conflicted about the X8, but would probably lean towards not releasing it for the same reason. The difference in accessing VRAM is my main concern — that would make X8 software incompatible with the X16.